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Recently during code review, my direct supervisor wrote a comment suggesting a change on some code I submitted. Normally, that is not a problem (and I understand that is the very point of code reviews), but it turns out that his concern is based on incorrect information.
More specifically, he raised concerns over a certain language feature, and explained why that could be an issue - except that, in fact, the language does not work as he explained. This is supported by language documentation.
(The language issue is about as complex to understand, simple to fix, and makes as much of a difference as a trailing comma in a C array. That is to say, this behavior has never been changed, it is not hard to grasp that the comma is optional, it is not an obscure concept, and it does absolutely nothing. I'm keeping the exact issue a bit vague on purpose.)
My question, then, is how do I explain to him (if at all) that his idea of how the language works is incorrect? Being at least one or two decades junior to him, I don't want to come off as arrogant. I would normally have no problem with sucking it up and making the change (it's as easy as deleting a comma) - but I also feel like that goes against the spirit of a code review.
Not a duplicate of How do I tell a coworker he's wrong?, since this is specifically about telling your seniors they are wrong..
communication united-states software-development
|
show 5 more comments
Recently during code review, my direct supervisor wrote a comment suggesting a change on some code I submitted. Normally, that is not a problem (and I understand that is the very point of code reviews), but it turns out that his concern is based on incorrect information.
More specifically, he raised concerns over a certain language feature, and explained why that could be an issue - except that, in fact, the language does not work as he explained. This is supported by language documentation.
(The language issue is about as complex to understand, simple to fix, and makes as much of a difference as a trailing comma in a C array. That is to say, this behavior has never been changed, it is not hard to grasp that the comma is optional, it is not an obscure concept, and it does absolutely nothing. I'm keeping the exact issue a bit vague on purpose.)
My question, then, is how do I explain to him (if at all) that his idea of how the language works is incorrect? Being at least one or two decades junior to him, I don't want to come off as arrogant. I would normally have no problem with sucking it up and making the change (it's as easy as deleting a comma) - but I also feel like that goes against the spirit of a code review.
Not a duplicate of How do I tell a coworker he's wrong?, since this is specifically about telling your seniors they are wrong..
communication united-states software-development
13
If you have a process for rejecting comments made during code review, just follow that.
– Laconic Droid
17 hours ago
1
@LaconicDroid We do not - as I understand it, code reviews go through a process but are somewhat informal at the office.
– osuka_
17 hours ago
1
@rkeet +1 for the "missed a changelog" point - this may be a recurring issue from an earlier version of the language that the supervisor recalls fighting with in the past, but has been patched/updated/fixed since he moved into management. Not "What an idiot, you don't need to do that", but rather "don't worry, you no longer need to do that"
– Chronocidal
10 hours ago
10
Maybe this should have a country tag? OP's username makes me think this might be Japan, where A) hierarchies are a lot more important and B) age is part of that and "one or two decades" make a huge difference. The gist of the answers will probably be the same, but we might have to put in an extraordinary amount of effort (from western perspective) into staying respectful to the senior. I myself think "being honest is my sign of respect", but that definitely comes from my culture instead of being universal.
– R. Schmitz
10 hours ago
2
Not a workplace answer, but: code reviews should not result in change requests (except if you're violating some policy), it should give suggestions. Since you know the code best, you have to decide to take it or leave it.
– Chris
2 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
Recently during code review, my direct supervisor wrote a comment suggesting a change on some code I submitted. Normally, that is not a problem (and I understand that is the very point of code reviews), but it turns out that his concern is based on incorrect information.
More specifically, he raised concerns over a certain language feature, and explained why that could be an issue - except that, in fact, the language does not work as he explained. This is supported by language documentation.
(The language issue is about as complex to understand, simple to fix, and makes as much of a difference as a trailing comma in a C array. That is to say, this behavior has never been changed, it is not hard to grasp that the comma is optional, it is not an obscure concept, and it does absolutely nothing. I'm keeping the exact issue a bit vague on purpose.)
My question, then, is how do I explain to him (if at all) that his idea of how the language works is incorrect? Being at least one or two decades junior to him, I don't want to come off as arrogant. I would normally have no problem with sucking it up and making the change (it's as easy as deleting a comma) - but I also feel like that goes against the spirit of a code review.
Not a duplicate of How do I tell a coworker he's wrong?, since this is specifically about telling your seniors they are wrong..
communication united-states software-development
Recently during code review, my direct supervisor wrote a comment suggesting a change on some code I submitted. Normally, that is not a problem (and I understand that is the very point of code reviews), but it turns out that his concern is based on incorrect information.
More specifically, he raised concerns over a certain language feature, and explained why that could be an issue - except that, in fact, the language does not work as he explained. This is supported by language documentation.
(The language issue is about as complex to understand, simple to fix, and makes as much of a difference as a trailing comma in a C array. That is to say, this behavior has never been changed, it is not hard to grasp that the comma is optional, it is not an obscure concept, and it does absolutely nothing. I'm keeping the exact issue a bit vague on purpose.)
My question, then, is how do I explain to him (if at all) that his idea of how the language works is incorrect? Being at least one or two decades junior to him, I don't want to come off as arrogant. I would normally have no problem with sucking it up and making the change (it's as easy as deleting a comma) - but I also feel like that goes against the spirit of a code review.
Not a duplicate of How do I tell a coworker he's wrong?, since this is specifically about telling your seniors they are wrong..
communication united-states software-development
communication united-states software-development
edited 17 mins ago
osuka_
asked 17 hours ago
osuka_osuka_
7532614
7532614
13
If you have a process for rejecting comments made during code review, just follow that.
– Laconic Droid
17 hours ago
1
@LaconicDroid We do not - as I understand it, code reviews go through a process but are somewhat informal at the office.
– osuka_
17 hours ago
1
@rkeet +1 for the "missed a changelog" point - this may be a recurring issue from an earlier version of the language that the supervisor recalls fighting with in the past, but has been patched/updated/fixed since he moved into management. Not "What an idiot, you don't need to do that", but rather "don't worry, you no longer need to do that"
– Chronocidal
10 hours ago
10
Maybe this should have a country tag? OP's username makes me think this might be Japan, where A) hierarchies are a lot more important and B) age is part of that and "one or two decades" make a huge difference. The gist of the answers will probably be the same, but we might have to put in an extraordinary amount of effort (from western perspective) into staying respectful to the senior. I myself think "being honest is my sign of respect", but that definitely comes from my culture instead of being universal.
– R. Schmitz
10 hours ago
2
Not a workplace answer, but: code reviews should not result in change requests (except if you're violating some policy), it should give suggestions. Since you know the code best, you have to decide to take it or leave it.
– Chris
2 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
13
If you have a process for rejecting comments made during code review, just follow that.
– Laconic Droid
17 hours ago
1
@LaconicDroid We do not - as I understand it, code reviews go through a process but are somewhat informal at the office.
– osuka_
17 hours ago
1
@rkeet +1 for the "missed a changelog" point - this may be a recurring issue from an earlier version of the language that the supervisor recalls fighting with in the past, but has been patched/updated/fixed since he moved into management. Not "What an idiot, you don't need to do that", but rather "don't worry, you no longer need to do that"
– Chronocidal
10 hours ago
10
Maybe this should have a country tag? OP's username makes me think this might be Japan, where A) hierarchies are a lot more important and B) age is part of that and "one or two decades" make a huge difference. The gist of the answers will probably be the same, but we might have to put in an extraordinary amount of effort (from western perspective) into staying respectful to the senior. I myself think "being honest is my sign of respect", but that definitely comes from my culture instead of being universal.
– R. Schmitz
10 hours ago
2
Not a workplace answer, but: code reviews should not result in change requests (except if you're violating some policy), it should give suggestions. Since you know the code best, you have to decide to take it or leave it.
– Chris
2 hours ago
13
13
If you have a process for rejecting comments made during code review, just follow that.
– Laconic Droid
17 hours ago
If you have a process for rejecting comments made during code review, just follow that.
– Laconic Droid
17 hours ago
1
1
@LaconicDroid We do not - as I understand it, code reviews go through a process but are somewhat informal at the office.
– osuka_
17 hours ago
@LaconicDroid We do not - as I understand it, code reviews go through a process but are somewhat informal at the office.
– osuka_
17 hours ago
1
1
@rkeet +1 for the "missed a changelog" point - this may be a recurring issue from an earlier version of the language that the supervisor recalls fighting with in the past, but has been patched/updated/fixed since he moved into management. Not "What an idiot, you don't need to do that", but rather "don't worry, you no longer need to do that"
– Chronocidal
10 hours ago
@rkeet +1 for the "missed a changelog" point - this may be a recurring issue from an earlier version of the language that the supervisor recalls fighting with in the past, but has been patched/updated/fixed since he moved into management. Not "What an idiot, you don't need to do that", but rather "don't worry, you no longer need to do that"
– Chronocidal
10 hours ago
10
10
Maybe this should have a country tag? OP's username makes me think this might be Japan, where A) hierarchies are a lot more important and B) age is part of that and "one or two decades" make a huge difference. The gist of the answers will probably be the same, but we might have to put in an extraordinary amount of effort (from western perspective) into staying respectful to the senior. I myself think "being honest is my sign of respect", but that definitely comes from my culture instead of being universal.
– R. Schmitz
10 hours ago
Maybe this should have a country tag? OP's username makes me think this might be Japan, where A) hierarchies are a lot more important and B) age is part of that and "one or two decades" make a huge difference. The gist of the answers will probably be the same, but we might have to put in an extraordinary amount of effort (from western perspective) into staying respectful to the senior. I myself think "being honest is my sign of respect", but that definitely comes from my culture instead of being universal.
– R. Schmitz
10 hours ago
2
2
Not a workplace answer, but: code reviews should not result in change requests (except if you're violating some policy), it should give suggestions. Since you know the code best, you have to decide to take it or leave it.
– Chris
2 hours ago
Not a workplace answer, but: code reviews should not result in change requests (except if you're violating some policy), it should give suggestions. Since you know the code best, you have to decide to take it or leave it.
– Chris
2 hours ago
|
show 5 more comments
7 Answers
7
active
oldest
votes
Be humble.
I'm a bit confused here. My understanding was that feature X has property Y. Is there something I'm missing here which means this doesn't work in this case?
Much better to start from the assumption that you are the one that is wrong, rather than the other way round. If you're wrong, you'll learn something; if you were in fact right, you've now taught your manager something in a non-confrontational way.
As an important aside, while you say this is different from our other question, it isn't really: you should be humble with your peers and with your juniors as well.
7
+1 - This is good advice, but the issue here is that this is very clear cut - when reading the applicable documentation page, it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect. This question really was about how to be humble when correcting a coworker that is tangibly wrong, while not being arrogant. Everyone makes mistakes regardless of seniority, and my concern really is to not come across as "that guy".
– osuka_
16 hours ago
4
@osuka_ I think this is the best solution. Maybe just add that because of your managers comment you weren't sure about what is right and you looked into to documentation and simply ask him if you understand the documentation right or not. Is isn't a bad thing to correct your manager, it only shows that you care about your job. And you trying to be humble about it will show your manager that you respect him. He/She is likely to be smart so he/she will figure it out anyway that you just try to be humble.
– GittingGud
13 hours ago
44
@osuka_ it seems that you are pretty confident that you are right. And may be you are. Yet, I'd start with amusing that I misunderstand something. May be not the doc, may be your senior's comment, or his intention, or may be you are missing some context that you cannot think of right now but your senior does. I've been there, and I was right many times. Yet there were also a few times, where it turned out that I did miss something, even though it had appeared to me clear-cut. So show him the part of the documentation you find confusing, and ask him to explain, how it matches his explanation
– Andrew Savinykh
13 hours ago
11
@osuka_ it's entirely possible the documentation is wrong or out of date, as unlikely as one may wish to believe.
– ESR
10 hours ago
5
Also there are cases where even though the docs are correct and you are correct - the other person may have additional info. Like maybe the servers aren't up-to-date with patches and the change is required because of some known issue that doesn't manifest unless some very odd code workaround is in place. There are a lot of weird cases that could be in play.
– Adam Naylor
8 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
You can simply "ask for more clarity" and show willingness to change but subtly indicating that his concerns are not valid. An email to this effect may help:
You have requested following changes in the code because of so and so reasons. However, my understanding of this language is that this problem will not occur because it instead works this way. I suppose I am missing something but could you please clarify or confirm that my understanding is wrong? If you have few minutes, I can show a demo of this and may be you can point out more specifically what your concerns are.
This way you will at least have a documented proof that you tried to correct him back. If he still insist, you can do whatever he requested and just hope it wont be a problem in the long run.
And when asking for clarity, provide a unit test demonstrating correctness of the feature you implemented. Ask for the clarifying comment to be provide in a way that you can make the unit test more complete.
– Paul
1 hour ago
add a comment |
In one of your comment you say:
"it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect"
Based on this, the easiest way forwards would be to keep the change and spend your energy on something more important.
Obviously this is only applicable if the change is indeed harmless.
2
Mmmmmm from experience this approach works better in real life, like the minutia in directions for hardboiling eggs or something, than software. Innocuous changes are a way for codebases to start getting cluttered and difficult to manage. Don't allow inert code to enter your codebase uncontested.
– user1717828
9 hours ago
So, make the change, but leave the old code (commented out of course) with a comment that it was changed at request of <manager> etc.
– Mike Brockington
9 hours ago
9
@Mike That's virtually the worst solution imaginable: Passive aggressive and cluttering the code base with commented out code (that's against most sane coding styles).
– Voo
9 hours ago
2
Your boss may take this as an insult. Can you do this without using the word "trivial"?
– Dawood ibn Kareem
50 mins ago
There are plenty of ways to rewrite code that have no effect on the output emitted by the compiler, but those changes may still have impacts on the code's quality or maintainability. I would take a statement like "it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect" to be a sign of stubbornness or ignorance, unless it is accompanied by a more substantial justification.
– 200_success
37 mins ago
add a comment |
If your manager gets this part of the language wrong, is it possible that other developers will also be confused by it? Bear in mind that maintainability by other people should be a goal. So: if this feature is confusing, there's an argument to be made for not using it.
With that in mind, you can go to your manager and -- being humble -- state that
you were surprised by his comment, and so you double-checked the documentation. It turns out that this feature is as you described, but you accept that it could be confusing, so you agree that you'll adopt his suggested clearer way to write the code.
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4
I think all this overblown humility is unnecessary, but this answer mentions the comment that I was looking for. Just show the guy the documentation, ask if he interprets it the same way and if the code needs a comment so others won't wonder about the same thing. This situation comes up often when doing code reviews.
– JollyJoker
8 hours ago
add a comment |
I feel that Philip Kendall answer is incomplete and lacking some backup so that is why I decided to write my own.
I often struggle to make people understand that they said something false but here are some techniques that often works for me:
Technique One
If someone makes an unsupported claim that I'm afraid is false, I ask them for backup. Like:
Oh, this is interesting/disturbing/curious, do you have any source for that? I want to know more about it.
Then, I let them search and they will, hopefully, realize their mistake on their own. Since they are the one who realize their mistake, they won't feel the shame that often come with the fact of being corrected.
If this doesn't work, I use technique two.
Technique Two
If the previous technique didn't work or isn't possible, I act confused and ask for clarification. This way, I'm showing that I'm open to the possibility of being wrong myself and that being wrong isn't such a big deal.
I usually start with some basic questions and then ask the more complex ones, like:
Me: So, <some basic question>, right?
Other: Yes
Me: And, <some other basic question>, right?
Other: Yes
Me: So, knowing that, why do you say that <your real question>?
Using this series of question allows you to be sure that you are on the same ground knowledge and that you don't have some misunderstanding somewhere.
When they answer your last question, if you are still not satisfied with their answer, you can ask follow up questions, like:
I still don't understand. When I read X, I understand Y. Isn't this right?
You notice that, during the conversation, I keep blaming myself for the misunderstanding. By doing so, you are not pressuring the other to be right. Since you can acknowledged being wrong with no shame, they will be more at ease to do the same.
I use this technique often and, so far, it's the best I have. Note that, in my experience, heated arguments are really bad and should be avoided at all cost.
add a comment |
I would handle it in two ways, depending on the supervisor.
If the supervisor is a tech person that works in the language you code in - I would contact them through an email with something along the lines of:
During the last code review, you have commented part xyz of my code as invalid and it got me wondering if my knowledge of how it works was correct. I have checked against the
documentation and made a small demo application and it seems to work correctly - should I still make the change or keep it in the current version?
Do include links to the documentation about that code part and a small demo - most developers, both junior and senior, are eager to learn new things in the field they work in and there is always a chance that it was just an honest mistake of your supervisor. It also shows that you make sure the knowledge you use at work is correct, which is usually well received by supervisors, while not attacking the supervisor in any way.
If your supervisor does not work with the language you use (as some teams often use many different technologies and the supervisor has to learn them a little for the sake of code review), and as you mentioned it is not a big change, I would change the code and not address it further - trying to persuade that your version is correct and their knowledge is too small would probably create more tension and negative feelings between you and your supervisor, than it would create good language practices.
4
"It works in my demo application" is not a good sign that something is correct. You should always go from an actual specification.
– Philip Kendall
7 hours ago
1
@PhilipKendall Oh how I wish that a specification would always be fully correct (looking at you, MSDN). It's also why i mentioned both documentation/specification and a demo should be included - it lets the supervisor quickly check/debug the code without the need of them writing a demo themselves.
– Rachey
7 hours ago
add a comment |
In reading some of these workplace problems, it brings back old memories where I worked in a SLC, UTAH company, in a manufacturing environment as a programmer. In looking back on it, I burned a bridge which I should of NEVER let happen. It was a bridge that I had to cross many times before. My supervisor was known as the company drunk, but he knew his stuff. He had many problems, but that side of him, was none of my business in the first place.
But NEVER tell your immdiate supervisor that he/she is wrong. NEVER! And never in front of his peers or any of his/her supvervisors. That a strike or nail in your coffin.
But before you runoff at the mouth on him/she being wrong, first take some extra time plus some extra effort(s) on your part and research it all the problems out where he/she 'might' be incorrect in full and provide alternate answers or solutions to solve the problem(s). Notice the careful wordings in the above statement??? Use words like "'might' be incorrect" NEVER 'Wrong'. Have supporting documents and answers to support your theories. After you've done your extra homework, set up a time to meet with your supervisor in a meeting form so that it fits his/hers' schedule, not yours! And go into that meeting with an attitude showing that you are workable, friendly, and happy and SHOW IT! One thing I learned with this past supervisor, he could read my attitude and body language and facial features and voice - know everything about me. And with all this effort and a meeting, you could either loose or win.
As my father would say, your supervisor holds the future of your job within the company you work in. In a sense, you are at his/hers' mercy. Oh, one thing I forgot, DON'T raise for voice for anything! Again, as I look back on this job, I could see places where the bridge was starting to burn. My job as a manufacturing programmer, is just like yours. All my work was reviewed by my supervisor period! And I recieved good marks and bad marks on my work and sometimes I was told to redo my programming work, and it was humbling!
So my advice to you as a from manufacturing environment programmer, It's up to you if you want the job, if you like the job and want to stay - it's up to you and your attitude plays a big part in your job. Remember, you are to make your supervisor look GOOD to everyone!! Enough of my preaching... Now enjoy your job.
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32
You really should use newlines and avoid YELLING.
– Eric Duminil
14 hours ago
4
Also, and more importantly: It is not clear how this answers the question - it looks more like a related anecdote. Please edit and clarify how this answers the question.
– sleske
9 hours ago
4
And more importantly, I believe most people agree that code reviews are a place of conversation - which means the comments and concerns go both ways. Having code/changes/comments criticized is not, and should not, taken personally by most programmers.
– osuka_
5 hours ago
add a comment |
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7 Answers
7
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7 Answers
7
active
oldest
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active
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active
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Be humble.
I'm a bit confused here. My understanding was that feature X has property Y. Is there something I'm missing here which means this doesn't work in this case?
Much better to start from the assumption that you are the one that is wrong, rather than the other way round. If you're wrong, you'll learn something; if you were in fact right, you've now taught your manager something in a non-confrontational way.
As an important aside, while you say this is different from our other question, it isn't really: you should be humble with your peers and with your juniors as well.
7
+1 - This is good advice, but the issue here is that this is very clear cut - when reading the applicable documentation page, it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect. This question really was about how to be humble when correcting a coworker that is tangibly wrong, while not being arrogant. Everyone makes mistakes regardless of seniority, and my concern really is to not come across as "that guy".
– osuka_
16 hours ago
4
@osuka_ I think this is the best solution. Maybe just add that because of your managers comment you weren't sure about what is right and you looked into to documentation and simply ask him if you understand the documentation right or not. Is isn't a bad thing to correct your manager, it only shows that you care about your job. And you trying to be humble about it will show your manager that you respect him. He/She is likely to be smart so he/she will figure it out anyway that you just try to be humble.
– GittingGud
13 hours ago
44
@osuka_ it seems that you are pretty confident that you are right. And may be you are. Yet, I'd start with amusing that I misunderstand something. May be not the doc, may be your senior's comment, or his intention, or may be you are missing some context that you cannot think of right now but your senior does. I've been there, and I was right many times. Yet there were also a few times, where it turned out that I did miss something, even though it had appeared to me clear-cut. So show him the part of the documentation you find confusing, and ask him to explain, how it matches his explanation
– Andrew Savinykh
13 hours ago
11
@osuka_ it's entirely possible the documentation is wrong or out of date, as unlikely as one may wish to believe.
– ESR
10 hours ago
5
Also there are cases where even though the docs are correct and you are correct - the other person may have additional info. Like maybe the servers aren't up-to-date with patches and the change is required because of some known issue that doesn't manifest unless some very odd code workaround is in place. There are a lot of weird cases that could be in play.
– Adam Naylor
8 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
Be humble.
I'm a bit confused here. My understanding was that feature X has property Y. Is there something I'm missing here which means this doesn't work in this case?
Much better to start from the assumption that you are the one that is wrong, rather than the other way round. If you're wrong, you'll learn something; if you were in fact right, you've now taught your manager something in a non-confrontational way.
As an important aside, while you say this is different from our other question, it isn't really: you should be humble with your peers and with your juniors as well.
7
+1 - This is good advice, but the issue here is that this is very clear cut - when reading the applicable documentation page, it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect. This question really was about how to be humble when correcting a coworker that is tangibly wrong, while not being arrogant. Everyone makes mistakes regardless of seniority, and my concern really is to not come across as "that guy".
– osuka_
16 hours ago
4
@osuka_ I think this is the best solution. Maybe just add that because of your managers comment you weren't sure about what is right and you looked into to documentation and simply ask him if you understand the documentation right or not. Is isn't a bad thing to correct your manager, it only shows that you care about your job. And you trying to be humble about it will show your manager that you respect him. He/She is likely to be smart so he/she will figure it out anyway that you just try to be humble.
– GittingGud
13 hours ago
44
@osuka_ it seems that you are pretty confident that you are right. And may be you are. Yet, I'd start with amusing that I misunderstand something. May be not the doc, may be your senior's comment, or his intention, or may be you are missing some context that you cannot think of right now but your senior does. I've been there, and I was right many times. Yet there were also a few times, where it turned out that I did miss something, even though it had appeared to me clear-cut. So show him the part of the documentation you find confusing, and ask him to explain, how it matches his explanation
– Andrew Savinykh
13 hours ago
11
@osuka_ it's entirely possible the documentation is wrong or out of date, as unlikely as one may wish to believe.
– ESR
10 hours ago
5
Also there are cases where even though the docs are correct and you are correct - the other person may have additional info. Like maybe the servers aren't up-to-date with patches and the change is required because of some known issue that doesn't manifest unless some very odd code workaround is in place. There are a lot of weird cases that could be in play.
– Adam Naylor
8 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
Be humble.
I'm a bit confused here. My understanding was that feature X has property Y. Is there something I'm missing here which means this doesn't work in this case?
Much better to start from the assumption that you are the one that is wrong, rather than the other way round. If you're wrong, you'll learn something; if you were in fact right, you've now taught your manager something in a non-confrontational way.
As an important aside, while you say this is different from our other question, it isn't really: you should be humble with your peers and with your juniors as well.
Be humble.
I'm a bit confused here. My understanding was that feature X has property Y. Is there something I'm missing here which means this doesn't work in this case?
Much better to start from the assumption that you are the one that is wrong, rather than the other way round. If you're wrong, you'll learn something; if you were in fact right, you've now taught your manager something in a non-confrontational way.
As an important aside, while you say this is different from our other question, it isn't really: you should be humble with your peers and with your juniors as well.
answered 16 hours ago
Philip KendallPhilip Kendall
53.9k38133164
53.9k38133164
7
+1 - This is good advice, but the issue here is that this is very clear cut - when reading the applicable documentation page, it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect. This question really was about how to be humble when correcting a coworker that is tangibly wrong, while not being arrogant. Everyone makes mistakes regardless of seniority, and my concern really is to not come across as "that guy".
– osuka_
16 hours ago
4
@osuka_ I think this is the best solution. Maybe just add that because of your managers comment you weren't sure about what is right and you looked into to documentation and simply ask him if you understand the documentation right or not. Is isn't a bad thing to correct your manager, it only shows that you care about your job. And you trying to be humble about it will show your manager that you respect him. He/She is likely to be smart so he/she will figure it out anyway that you just try to be humble.
– GittingGud
13 hours ago
44
@osuka_ it seems that you are pretty confident that you are right. And may be you are. Yet, I'd start with amusing that I misunderstand something. May be not the doc, may be your senior's comment, or his intention, or may be you are missing some context that you cannot think of right now but your senior does. I've been there, and I was right many times. Yet there were also a few times, where it turned out that I did miss something, even though it had appeared to me clear-cut. So show him the part of the documentation you find confusing, and ask him to explain, how it matches his explanation
– Andrew Savinykh
13 hours ago
11
@osuka_ it's entirely possible the documentation is wrong or out of date, as unlikely as one may wish to believe.
– ESR
10 hours ago
5
Also there are cases where even though the docs are correct and you are correct - the other person may have additional info. Like maybe the servers aren't up-to-date with patches and the change is required because of some known issue that doesn't manifest unless some very odd code workaround is in place. There are a lot of weird cases that could be in play.
– Adam Naylor
8 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
7
+1 - This is good advice, but the issue here is that this is very clear cut - when reading the applicable documentation page, it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect. This question really was about how to be humble when correcting a coworker that is tangibly wrong, while not being arrogant. Everyone makes mistakes regardless of seniority, and my concern really is to not come across as "that guy".
– osuka_
16 hours ago
4
@osuka_ I think this is the best solution. Maybe just add that because of your managers comment you weren't sure about what is right and you looked into to documentation and simply ask him if you understand the documentation right or not. Is isn't a bad thing to correct your manager, it only shows that you care about your job. And you trying to be humble about it will show your manager that you respect him. He/She is likely to be smart so he/she will figure it out anyway that you just try to be humble.
– GittingGud
13 hours ago
44
@osuka_ it seems that you are pretty confident that you are right. And may be you are. Yet, I'd start with amusing that I misunderstand something. May be not the doc, may be your senior's comment, or his intention, or may be you are missing some context that you cannot think of right now but your senior does. I've been there, and I was right many times. Yet there were also a few times, where it turned out that I did miss something, even though it had appeared to me clear-cut. So show him the part of the documentation you find confusing, and ask him to explain, how it matches his explanation
– Andrew Savinykh
13 hours ago
11
@osuka_ it's entirely possible the documentation is wrong or out of date, as unlikely as one may wish to believe.
– ESR
10 hours ago
5
Also there are cases where even though the docs are correct and you are correct - the other person may have additional info. Like maybe the servers aren't up-to-date with patches and the change is required because of some known issue that doesn't manifest unless some very odd code workaround is in place. There are a lot of weird cases that could be in play.
– Adam Naylor
8 hours ago
7
7
+1 - This is good advice, but the issue here is that this is very clear cut - when reading the applicable documentation page, it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect. This question really was about how to be humble when correcting a coworker that is tangibly wrong, while not being arrogant. Everyone makes mistakes regardless of seniority, and my concern really is to not come across as "that guy".
– osuka_
16 hours ago
+1 - This is good advice, but the issue here is that this is very clear cut - when reading the applicable documentation page, it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect. This question really was about how to be humble when correcting a coworker that is tangibly wrong, while not being arrogant. Everyone makes mistakes regardless of seniority, and my concern really is to not come across as "that guy".
– osuka_
16 hours ago
4
4
@osuka_ I think this is the best solution. Maybe just add that because of your managers comment you weren't sure about what is right and you looked into to documentation and simply ask him if you understand the documentation right or not. Is isn't a bad thing to correct your manager, it only shows that you care about your job. And you trying to be humble about it will show your manager that you respect him. He/She is likely to be smart so he/she will figure it out anyway that you just try to be humble.
– GittingGud
13 hours ago
@osuka_ I think this is the best solution. Maybe just add that because of your managers comment you weren't sure about what is right and you looked into to documentation and simply ask him if you understand the documentation right or not. Is isn't a bad thing to correct your manager, it only shows that you care about your job. And you trying to be humble about it will show your manager that you respect him. He/She is likely to be smart so he/she will figure it out anyway that you just try to be humble.
– GittingGud
13 hours ago
44
44
@osuka_ it seems that you are pretty confident that you are right. And may be you are. Yet, I'd start with amusing that I misunderstand something. May be not the doc, may be your senior's comment, or his intention, or may be you are missing some context that you cannot think of right now but your senior does. I've been there, and I was right many times. Yet there were also a few times, where it turned out that I did miss something, even though it had appeared to me clear-cut. So show him the part of the documentation you find confusing, and ask him to explain, how it matches his explanation
– Andrew Savinykh
13 hours ago
@osuka_ it seems that you are pretty confident that you are right. And may be you are. Yet, I'd start with amusing that I misunderstand something. May be not the doc, may be your senior's comment, or his intention, or may be you are missing some context that you cannot think of right now but your senior does. I've been there, and I was right many times. Yet there were also a few times, where it turned out that I did miss something, even though it had appeared to me clear-cut. So show him the part of the documentation you find confusing, and ask him to explain, how it matches his explanation
– Andrew Savinykh
13 hours ago
11
11
@osuka_ it's entirely possible the documentation is wrong or out of date, as unlikely as one may wish to believe.
– ESR
10 hours ago
@osuka_ it's entirely possible the documentation is wrong or out of date, as unlikely as one may wish to believe.
– ESR
10 hours ago
5
5
Also there are cases where even though the docs are correct and you are correct - the other person may have additional info. Like maybe the servers aren't up-to-date with patches and the change is required because of some known issue that doesn't manifest unless some very odd code workaround is in place. There are a lot of weird cases that could be in play.
– Adam Naylor
8 hours ago
Also there are cases where even though the docs are correct and you are correct - the other person may have additional info. Like maybe the servers aren't up-to-date with patches and the change is required because of some known issue that doesn't manifest unless some very odd code workaround is in place. There are a lot of weird cases that could be in play.
– Adam Naylor
8 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
You can simply "ask for more clarity" and show willingness to change but subtly indicating that his concerns are not valid. An email to this effect may help:
You have requested following changes in the code because of so and so reasons. However, my understanding of this language is that this problem will not occur because it instead works this way. I suppose I am missing something but could you please clarify or confirm that my understanding is wrong? If you have few minutes, I can show a demo of this and may be you can point out more specifically what your concerns are.
This way you will at least have a documented proof that you tried to correct him back. If he still insist, you can do whatever he requested and just hope it wont be a problem in the long run.
And when asking for clarity, provide a unit test demonstrating correctness of the feature you implemented. Ask for the clarifying comment to be provide in a way that you can make the unit test more complete.
– Paul
1 hour ago
add a comment |
You can simply "ask for more clarity" and show willingness to change but subtly indicating that his concerns are not valid. An email to this effect may help:
You have requested following changes in the code because of so and so reasons. However, my understanding of this language is that this problem will not occur because it instead works this way. I suppose I am missing something but could you please clarify or confirm that my understanding is wrong? If you have few minutes, I can show a demo of this and may be you can point out more specifically what your concerns are.
This way you will at least have a documented proof that you tried to correct him back. If he still insist, you can do whatever he requested and just hope it wont be a problem in the long run.
And when asking for clarity, provide a unit test demonstrating correctness of the feature you implemented. Ask for the clarifying comment to be provide in a way that you can make the unit test more complete.
– Paul
1 hour ago
add a comment |
You can simply "ask for more clarity" and show willingness to change but subtly indicating that his concerns are not valid. An email to this effect may help:
You have requested following changes in the code because of so and so reasons. However, my understanding of this language is that this problem will not occur because it instead works this way. I suppose I am missing something but could you please clarify or confirm that my understanding is wrong? If you have few minutes, I can show a demo of this and may be you can point out more specifically what your concerns are.
This way you will at least have a documented proof that you tried to correct him back. If he still insist, you can do whatever he requested and just hope it wont be a problem in the long run.
You can simply "ask for more clarity" and show willingness to change but subtly indicating that his concerns are not valid. An email to this effect may help:
You have requested following changes in the code because of so and so reasons. However, my understanding of this language is that this problem will not occur because it instead works this way. I suppose I am missing something but could you please clarify or confirm that my understanding is wrong? If you have few minutes, I can show a demo of this and may be you can point out more specifically what your concerns are.
This way you will at least have a documented proof that you tried to correct him back. If he still insist, you can do whatever he requested and just hope it wont be a problem in the long run.
answered 16 hours ago
PagMaxPagMax
10.2k52649
10.2k52649
And when asking for clarity, provide a unit test demonstrating correctness of the feature you implemented. Ask for the clarifying comment to be provide in a way that you can make the unit test more complete.
– Paul
1 hour ago
add a comment |
And when asking for clarity, provide a unit test demonstrating correctness of the feature you implemented. Ask for the clarifying comment to be provide in a way that you can make the unit test more complete.
– Paul
1 hour ago
And when asking for clarity, provide a unit test demonstrating correctness of the feature you implemented. Ask for the clarifying comment to be provide in a way that you can make the unit test more complete.
– Paul
1 hour ago
And when asking for clarity, provide a unit test demonstrating correctness of the feature you implemented. Ask for the clarifying comment to be provide in a way that you can make the unit test more complete.
– Paul
1 hour ago
add a comment |
In one of your comment you say:
"it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect"
Based on this, the easiest way forwards would be to keep the change and spend your energy on something more important.
Obviously this is only applicable if the change is indeed harmless.
2
Mmmmmm from experience this approach works better in real life, like the minutia in directions for hardboiling eggs or something, than software. Innocuous changes are a way for codebases to start getting cluttered and difficult to manage. Don't allow inert code to enter your codebase uncontested.
– user1717828
9 hours ago
So, make the change, but leave the old code (commented out of course) with a comment that it was changed at request of <manager> etc.
– Mike Brockington
9 hours ago
9
@Mike That's virtually the worst solution imaginable: Passive aggressive and cluttering the code base with commented out code (that's against most sane coding styles).
– Voo
9 hours ago
2
Your boss may take this as an insult. Can you do this without using the word "trivial"?
– Dawood ibn Kareem
50 mins ago
There are plenty of ways to rewrite code that have no effect on the output emitted by the compiler, but those changes may still have impacts on the code's quality or maintainability. I would take a statement like "it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect" to be a sign of stubbornness or ignorance, unless it is accompanied by a more substantial justification.
– 200_success
37 mins ago
add a comment |
In one of your comment you say:
"it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect"
Based on this, the easiest way forwards would be to keep the change and spend your energy on something more important.
Obviously this is only applicable if the change is indeed harmless.
2
Mmmmmm from experience this approach works better in real life, like the minutia in directions for hardboiling eggs or something, than software. Innocuous changes are a way for codebases to start getting cluttered and difficult to manage. Don't allow inert code to enter your codebase uncontested.
– user1717828
9 hours ago
So, make the change, but leave the old code (commented out of course) with a comment that it was changed at request of <manager> etc.
– Mike Brockington
9 hours ago
9
@Mike That's virtually the worst solution imaginable: Passive aggressive and cluttering the code base with commented out code (that's against most sane coding styles).
– Voo
9 hours ago
2
Your boss may take this as an insult. Can you do this without using the word "trivial"?
– Dawood ibn Kareem
50 mins ago
There are plenty of ways to rewrite code that have no effect on the output emitted by the compiler, but those changes may still have impacts on the code's quality or maintainability. I would take a statement like "it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect" to be a sign of stubbornness or ignorance, unless it is accompanied by a more substantial justification.
– 200_success
37 mins ago
add a comment |
In one of your comment you say:
"it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect"
Based on this, the easiest way forwards would be to keep the change and spend your energy on something more important.
Obviously this is only applicable if the change is indeed harmless.
In one of your comment you say:
"it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect"
Based on this, the easiest way forwards would be to keep the change and spend your energy on something more important.
Obviously this is only applicable if the change is indeed harmless.
answered 11 hours ago
P. HopkinsonP. Hopkinson
1,174310
1,174310
2
Mmmmmm from experience this approach works better in real life, like the minutia in directions for hardboiling eggs or something, than software. Innocuous changes are a way for codebases to start getting cluttered and difficult to manage. Don't allow inert code to enter your codebase uncontested.
– user1717828
9 hours ago
So, make the change, but leave the old code (commented out of course) with a comment that it was changed at request of <manager> etc.
– Mike Brockington
9 hours ago
9
@Mike That's virtually the worst solution imaginable: Passive aggressive and cluttering the code base with commented out code (that's against most sane coding styles).
– Voo
9 hours ago
2
Your boss may take this as an insult. Can you do this without using the word "trivial"?
– Dawood ibn Kareem
50 mins ago
There are plenty of ways to rewrite code that have no effect on the output emitted by the compiler, but those changes may still have impacts on the code's quality or maintainability. I would take a statement like "it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect" to be a sign of stubbornness or ignorance, unless it is accompanied by a more substantial justification.
– 200_success
37 mins ago
add a comment |
2
Mmmmmm from experience this approach works better in real life, like the minutia in directions for hardboiling eggs or something, than software. Innocuous changes are a way for codebases to start getting cluttered and difficult to manage. Don't allow inert code to enter your codebase uncontested.
– user1717828
9 hours ago
So, make the change, but leave the old code (commented out of course) with a comment that it was changed at request of <manager> etc.
– Mike Brockington
9 hours ago
9
@Mike That's virtually the worst solution imaginable: Passive aggressive and cluttering the code base with commented out code (that's against most sane coding styles).
– Voo
9 hours ago
2
Your boss may take this as an insult. Can you do this without using the word "trivial"?
– Dawood ibn Kareem
50 mins ago
There are plenty of ways to rewrite code that have no effect on the output emitted by the compiler, but those changes may still have impacts on the code's quality or maintainability. I would take a statement like "it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect" to be a sign of stubbornness or ignorance, unless it is accompanied by a more substantial justification.
– 200_success
37 mins ago
2
2
Mmmmmm from experience this approach works better in real life, like the minutia in directions for hardboiling eggs or something, than software. Innocuous changes are a way for codebases to start getting cluttered and difficult to manage. Don't allow inert code to enter your codebase uncontested.
– user1717828
9 hours ago
Mmmmmm from experience this approach works better in real life, like the minutia in directions for hardboiling eggs or something, than software. Innocuous changes are a way for codebases to start getting cluttered and difficult to manage. Don't allow inert code to enter your codebase uncontested.
– user1717828
9 hours ago
So, make the change, but leave the old code (commented out of course) with a comment that it was changed at request of <manager> etc.
– Mike Brockington
9 hours ago
So, make the change, but leave the old code (commented out of course) with a comment that it was changed at request of <manager> etc.
– Mike Brockington
9 hours ago
9
9
@Mike That's virtually the worst solution imaginable: Passive aggressive and cluttering the code base with commented out code (that's against most sane coding styles).
– Voo
9 hours ago
@Mike That's virtually the worst solution imaginable: Passive aggressive and cluttering the code base with commented out code (that's against most sane coding styles).
– Voo
9 hours ago
2
2
Your boss may take this as an insult. Can you do this without using the word "trivial"?
– Dawood ibn Kareem
50 mins ago
Your boss may take this as an insult. Can you do this without using the word "trivial"?
– Dawood ibn Kareem
50 mins ago
There are plenty of ways to rewrite code that have no effect on the output emitted by the compiler, but those changes may still have impacts on the code's quality or maintainability. I would take a statement like "it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect" to be a sign of stubbornness or ignorance, unless it is accompanied by a more substantial justification.
– 200_success
37 mins ago
There are plenty of ways to rewrite code that have no effect on the output emitted by the compiler, but those changes may still have impacts on the code's quality or maintainability. I would take a statement like "it is trivial to conclude that the requested change has no effect" to be a sign of stubbornness or ignorance, unless it is accompanied by a more substantial justification.
– 200_success
37 mins ago
add a comment |
If your manager gets this part of the language wrong, is it possible that other developers will also be confused by it? Bear in mind that maintainability by other people should be a goal. So: if this feature is confusing, there's an argument to be made for not using it.
With that in mind, you can go to your manager and -- being humble -- state that
you were surprised by his comment, and so you double-checked the documentation. It turns out that this feature is as you described, but you accept that it could be confusing, so you agree that you'll adopt his suggested clearer way to write the code.
New contributor
Roger Lipscombe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
4
I think all this overblown humility is unnecessary, but this answer mentions the comment that I was looking for. Just show the guy the documentation, ask if he interprets it the same way and if the code needs a comment so others won't wonder about the same thing. This situation comes up often when doing code reviews.
– JollyJoker
8 hours ago
add a comment |
If your manager gets this part of the language wrong, is it possible that other developers will also be confused by it? Bear in mind that maintainability by other people should be a goal. So: if this feature is confusing, there's an argument to be made for not using it.
With that in mind, you can go to your manager and -- being humble -- state that
you were surprised by his comment, and so you double-checked the documentation. It turns out that this feature is as you described, but you accept that it could be confusing, so you agree that you'll adopt his suggested clearer way to write the code.
New contributor
Roger Lipscombe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
4
I think all this overblown humility is unnecessary, but this answer mentions the comment that I was looking for. Just show the guy the documentation, ask if he interprets it the same way and if the code needs a comment so others won't wonder about the same thing. This situation comes up often when doing code reviews.
– JollyJoker
8 hours ago
add a comment |
If your manager gets this part of the language wrong, is it possible that other developers will also be confused by it? Bear in mind that maintainability by other people should be a goal. So: if this feature is confusing, there's an argument to be made for not using it.
With that in mind, you can go to your manager and -- being humble -- state that
you were surprised by his comment, and so you double-checked the documentation. It turns out that this feature is as you described, but you accept that it could be confusing, so you agree that you'll adopt his suggested clearer way to write the code.
New contributor
Roger Lipscombe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
If your manager gets this part of the language wrong, is it possible that other developers will also be confused by it? Bear in mind that maintainability by other people should be a goal. So: if this feature is confusing, there's an argument to be made for not using it.
With that in mind, you can go to your manager and -- being humble -- state that
you were surprised by his comment, and so you double-checked the documentation. It turns out that this feature is as you described, but you accept that it could be confusing, so you agree that you'll adopt his suggested clearer way to write the code.
New contributor
Roger Lipscombe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Roger Lipscombe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 9 hours ago
Roger LipscombeRoger Lipscombe
1614
1614
New contributor
Roger Lipscombe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Roger Lipscombe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Roger Lipscombe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
4
I think all this overblown humility is unnecessary, but this answer mentions the comment that I was looking for. Just show the guy the documentation, ask if he interprets it the same way and if the code needs a comment so others won't wonder about the same thing. This situation comes up often when doing code reviews.
– JollyJoker
8 hours ago
add a comment |
4
I think all this overblown humility is unnecessary, but this answer mentions the comment that I was looking for. Just show the guy the documentation, ask if he interprets it the same way and if the code needs a comment so others won't wonder about the same thing. This situation comes up often when doing code reviews.
– JollyJoker
8 hours ago
4
4
I think all this overblown humility is unnecessary, but this answer mentions the comment that I was looking for. Just show the guy the documentation, ask if he interprets it the same way and if the code needs a comment so others won't wonder about the same thing. This situation comes up often when doing code reviews.
– JollyJoker
8 hours ago
I think all this overblown humility is unnecessary, but this answer mentions the comment that I was looking for. Just show the guy the documentation, ask if he interprets it the same way and if the code needs a comment so others won't wonder about the same thing. This situation comes up often when doing code reviews.
– JollyJoker
8 hours ago
add a comment |
I feel that Philip Kendall answer is incomplete and lacking some backup so that is why I decided to write my own.
I often struggle to make people understand that they said something false but here are some techniques that often works for me:
Technique One
If someone makes an unsupported claim that I'm afraid is false, I ask them for backup. Like:
Oh, this is interesting/disturbing/curious, do you have any source for that? I want to know more about it.
Then, I let them search and they will, hopefully, realize their mistake on their own. Since they are the one who realize their mistake, they won't feel the shame that often come with the fact of being corrected.
If this doesn't work, I use technique two.
Technique Two
If the previous technique didn't work or isn't possible, I act confused and ask for clarification. This way, I'm showing that I'm open to the possibility of being wrong myself and that being wrong isn't such a big deal.
I usually start with some basic questions and then ask the more complex ones, like:
Me: So, <some basic question>, right?
Other: Yes
Me: And, <some other basic question>, right?
Other: Yes
Me: So, knowing that, why do you say that <your real question>?
Using this series of question allows you to be sure that you are on the same ground knowledge and that you don't have some misunderstanding somewhere.
When they answer your last question, if you are still not satisfied with their answer, you can ask follow up questions, like:
I still don't understand. When I read X, I understand Y. Isn't this right?
You notice that, during the conversation, I keep blaming myself for the misunderstanding. By doing so, you are not pressuring the other to be right. Since you can acknowledged being wrong with no shame, they will be more at ease to do the same.
I use this technique often and, so far, it's the best I have. Note that, in my experience, heated arguments are really bad and should be avoided at all cost.
add a comment |
I feel that Philip Kendall answer is incomplete and lacking some backup so that is why I decided to write my own.
I often struggle to make people understand that they said something false but here are some techniques that often works for me:
Technique One
If someone makes an unsupported claim that I'm afraid is false, I ask them for backup. Like:
Oh, this is interesting/disturbing/curious, do you have any source for that? I want to know more about it.
Then, I let them search and they will, hopefully, realize their mistake on their own. Since they are the one who realize their mistake, they won't feel the shame that often come with the fact of being corrected.
If this doesn't work, I use technique two.
Technique Two
If the previous technique didn't work or isn't possible, I act confused and ask for clarification. This way, I'm showing that I'm open to the possibility of being wrong myself and that being wrong isn't such a big deal.
I usually start with some basic questions and then ask the more complex ones, like:
Me: So, <some basic question>, right?
Other: Yes
Me: And, <some other basic question>, right?
Other: Yes
Me: So, knowing that, why do you say that <your real question>?
Using this series of question allows you to be sure that you are on the same ground knowledge and that you don't have some misunderstanding somewhere.
When they answer your last question, if you are still not satisfied with their answer, you can ask follow up questions, like:
I still don't understand. When I read X, I understand Y. Isn't this right?
You notice that, during the conversation, I keep blaming myself for the misunderstanding. By doing so, you are not pressuring the other to be right. Since you can acknowledged being wrong with no shame, they will be more at ease to do the same.
I use this technique often and, so far, it's the best I have. Note that, in my experience, heated arguments are really bad and should be avoided at all cost.
add a comment |
I feel that Philip Kendall answer is incomplete and lacking some backup so that is why I decided to write my own.
I often struggle to make people understand that they said something false but here are some techniques that often works for me:
Technique One
If someone makes an unsupported claim that I'm afraid is false, I ask them for backup. Like:
Oh, this is interesting/disturbing/curious, do you have any source for that? I want to know more about it.
Then, I let them search and they will, hopefully, realize their mistake on their own. Since they are the one who realize their mistake, they won't feel the shame that often come with the fact of being corrected.
If this doesn't work, I use technique two.
Technique Two
If the previous technique didn't work or isn't possible, I act confused and ask for clarification. This way, I'm showing that I'm open to the possibility of being wrong myself and that being wrong isn't such a big deal.
I usually start with some basic questions and then ask the more complex ones, like:
Me: So, <some basic question>, right?
Other: Yes
Me: And, <some other basic question>, right?
Other: Yes
Me: So, knowing that, why do you say that <your real question>?
Using this series of question allows you to be sure that you are on the same ground knowledge and that you don't have some misunderstanding somewhere.
When they answer your last question, if you are still not satisfied with their answer, you can ask follow up questions, like:
I still don't understand. When I read X, I understand Y. Isn't this right?
You notice that, during the conversation, I keep blaming myself for the misunderstanding. By doing so, you are not pressuring the other to be right. Since you can acknowledged being wrong with no shame, they will be more at ease to do the same.
I use this technique often and, so far, it's the best I have. Note that, in my experience, heated arguments are really bad and should be avoided at all cost.
I feel that Philip Kendall answer is incomplete and lacking some backup so that is why I decided to write my own.
I often struggle to make people understand that they said something false but here are some techniques that often works for me:
Technique One
If someone makes an unsupported claim that I'm afraid is false, I ask them for backup. Like:
Oh, this is interesting/disturbing/curious, do you have any source for that? I want to know more about it.
Then, I let them search and they will, hopefully, realize their mistake on their own. Since they are the one who realize their mistake, they won't feel the shame that often come with the fact of being corrected.
If this doesn't work, I use technique two.
Technique Two
If the previous technique didn't work or isn't possible, I act confused and ask for clarification. This way, I'm showing that I'm open to the possibility of being wrong myself and that being wrong isn't such a big deal.
I usually start with some basic questions and then ask the more complex ones, like:
Me: So, <some basic question>, right?
Other: Yes
Me: And, <some other basic question>, right?
Other: Yes
Me: So, knowing that, why do you say that <your real question>?
Using this series of question allows you to be sure that you are on the same ground knowledge and that you don't have some misunderstanding somewhere.
When they answer your last question, if you are still not satisfied with their answer, you can ask follow up questions, like:
I still don't understand. When I read X, I understand Y. Isn't this right?
You notice that, during the conversation, I keep blaming myself for the misunderstanding. By doing so, you are not pressuring the other to be right. Since you can acknowledged being wrong with no shame, they will be more at ease to do the same.
I use this technique often and, so far, it's the best I have. Note that, in my experience, heated arguments are really bad and should be avoided at all cost.
edited 15 mins ago
HappyGilmore
31
31
answered 4 hours ago
ÆlisÆlis
525112
525112
add a comment |
add a comment |
I would handle it in two ways, depending on the supervisor.
If the supervisor is a tech person that works in the language you code in - I would contact them through an email with something along the lines of:
During the last code review, you have commented part xyz of my code as invalid and it got me wondering if my knowledge of how it works was correct. I have checked against the
documentation and made a small demo application and it seems to work correctly - should I still make the change or keep it in the current version?
Do include links to the documentation about that code part and a small demo - most developers, both junior and senior, are eager to learn new things in the field they work in and there is always a chance that it was just an honest mistake of your supervisor. It also shows that you make sure the knowledge you use at work is correct, which is usually well received by supervisors, while not attacking the supervisor in any way.
If your supervisor does not work with the language you use (as some teams often use many different technologies and the supervisor has to learn them a little for the sake of code review), and as you mentioned it is not a big change, I would change the code and not address it further - trying to persuade that your version is correct and their knowledge is too small would probably create more tension and negative feelings between you and your supervisor, than it would create good language practices.
4
"It works in my demo application" is not a good sign that something is correct. You should always go from an actual specification.
– Philip Kendall
7 hours ago
1
@PhilipKendall Oh how I wish that a specification would always be fully correct (looking at you, MSDN). It's also why i mentioned both documentation/specification and a demo should be included - it lets the supervisor quickly check/debug the code without the need of them writing a demo themselves.
– Rachey
7 hours ago
add a comment |
I would handle it in two ways, depending on the supervisor.
If the supervisor is a tech person that works in the language you code in - I would contact them through an email with something along the lines of:
During the last code review, you have commented part xyz of my code as invalid and it got me wondering if my knowledge of how it works was correct. I have checked against the
documentation and made a small demo application and it seems to work correctly - should I still make the change or keep it in the current version?
Do include links to the documentation about that code part and a small demo - most developers, both junior and senior, are eager to learn new things in the field they work in and there is always a chance that it was just an honest mistake of your supervisor. It also shows that you make sure the knowledge you use at work is correct, which is usually well received by supervisors, while not attacking the supervisor in any way.
If your supervisor does not work with the language you use (as some teams often use many different technologies and the supervisor has to learn them a little for the sake of code review), and as you mentioned it is not a big change, I would change the code and not address it further - trying to persuade that your version is correct and their knowledge is too small would probably create more tension and negative feelings between you and your supervisor, than it would create good language practices.
4
"It works in my demo application" is not a good sign that something is correct. You should always go from an actual specification.
– Philip Kendall
7 hours ago
1
@PhilipKendall Oh how I wish that a specification would always be fully correct (looking at you, MSDN). It's also why i mentioned both documentation/specification and a demo should be included - it lets the supervisor quickly check/debug the code without the need of them writing a demo themselves.
– Rachey
7 hours ago
add a comment |
I would handle it in two ways, depending on the supervisor.
If the supervisor is a tech person that works in the language you code in - I would contact them through an email with something along the lines of:
During the last code review, you have commented part xyz of my code as invalid and it got me wondering if my knowledge of how it works was correct. I have checked against the
documentation and made a small demo application and it seems to work correctly - should I still make the change or keep it in the current version?
Do include links to the documentation about that code part and a small demo - most developers, both junior and senior, are eager to learn new things in the field they work in and there is always a chance that it was just an honest mistake of your supervisor. It also shows that you make sure the knowledge you use at work is correct, which is usually well received by supervisors, while not attacking the supervisor in any way.
If your supervisor does not work with the language you use (as some teams often use many different technologies and the supervisor has to learn them a little for the sake of code review), and as you mentioned it is not a big change, I would change the code and not address it further - trying to persuade that your version is correct and their knowledge is too small would probably create more tension and negative feelings between you and your supervisor, than it would create good language practices.
I would handle it in two ways, depending on the supervisor.
If the supervisor is a tech person that works in the language you code in - I would contact them through an email with something along the lines of:
During the last code review, you have commented part xyz of my code as invalid and it got me wondering if my knowledge of how it works was correct. I have checked against the
documentation and made a small demo application and it seems to work correctly - should I still make the change or keep it in the current version?
Do include links to the documentation about that code part and a small demo - most developers, both junior and senior, are eager to learn new things in the field they work in and there is always a chance that it was just an honest mistake of your supervisor. It also shows that you make sure the knowledge you use at work is correct, which is usually well received by supervisors, while not attacking the supervisor in any way.
If your supervisor does not work with the language you use (as some teams often use many different technologies and the supervisor has to learn them a little for the sake of code review), and as you mentioned it is not a big change, I would change the code and not address it further - trying to persuade that your version is correct and their knowledge is too small would probably create more tension and negative feelings between you and your supervisor, than it would create good language practices.
answered 7 hours ago
RacheyRachey
391
391
4
"It works in my demo application" is not a good sign that something is correct. You should always go from an actual specification.
– Philip Kendall
7 hours ago
1
@PhilipKendall Oh how I wish that a specification would always be fully correct (looking at you, MSDN). It's also why i mentioned both documentation/specification and a demo should be included - it lets the supervisor quickly check/debug the code without the need of them writing a demo themselves.
– Rachey
7 hours ago
add a comment |
4
"It works in my demo application" is not a good sign that something is correct. You should always go from an actual specification.
– Philip Kendall
7 hours ago
1
@PhilipKendall Oh how I wish that a specification would always be fully correct (looking at you, MSDN). It's also why i mentioned both documentation/specification and a demo should be included - it lets the supervisor quickly check/debug the code without the need of them writing a demo themselves.
– Rachey
7 hours ago
4
4
"It works in my demo application" is not a good sign that something is correct. You should always go from an actual specification.
– Philip Kendall
7 hours ago
"It works in my demo application" is not a good sign that something is correct. You should always go from an actual specification.
– Philip Kendall
7 hours ago
1
1
@PhilipKendall Oh how I wish that a specification would always be fully correct (looking at you, MSDN). It's also why i mentioned both documentation/specification and a demo should be included - it lets the supervisor quickly check/debug the code without the need of them writing a demo themselves.
– Rachey
7 hours ago
@PhilipKendall Oh how I wish that a specification would always be fully correct (looking at you, MSDN). It's also why i mentioned both documentation/specification and a demo should be included - it lets the supervisor quickly check/debug the code without the need of them writing a demo themselves.
– Rachey
7 hours ago
add a comment |
In reading some of these workplace problems, it brings back old memories where I worked in a SLC, UTAH company, in a manufacturing environment as a programmer. In looking back on it, I burned a bridge which I should of NEVER let happen. It was a bridge that I had to cross many times before. My supervisor was known as the company drunk, but he knew his stuff. He had many problems, but that side of him, was none of my business in the first place.
But NEVER tell your immdiate supervisor that he/she is wrong. NEVER! And never in front of his peers or any of his/her supvervisors. That a strike or nail in your coffin.
But before you runoff at the mouth on him/she being wrong, first take some extra time plus some extra effort(s) on your part and research it all the problems out where he/she 'might' be incorrect in full and provide alternate answers or solutions to solve the problem(s). Notice the careful wordings in the above statement??? Use words like "'might' be incorrect" NEVER 'Wrong'. Have supporting documents and answers to support your theories. After you've done your extra homework, set up a time to meet with your supervisor in a meeting form so that it fits his/hers' schedule, not yours! And go into that meeting with an attitude showing that you are workable, friendly, and happy and SHOW IT! One thing I learned with this past supervisor, he could read my attitude and body language and facial features and voice - know everything about me. And with all this effort and a meeting, you could either loose or win.
As my father would say, your supervisor holds the future of your job within the company you work in. In a sense, you are at his/hers' mercy. Oh, one thing I forgot, DON'T raise for voice for anything! Again, as I look back on this job, I could see places where the bridge was starting to burn. My job as a manufacturing programmer, is just like yours. All my work was reviewed by my supervisor period! And I recieved good marks and bad marks on my work and sometimes I was told to redo my programming work, and it was humbling!
So my advice to you as a from manufacturing environment programmer, It's up to you if you want the job, if you like the job and want to stay - it's up to you and your attitude plays a big part in your job. Remember, you are to make your supervisor look GOOD to everyone!! Enough of my preaching... Now enjoy your job.
New contributor
Tom Thorpe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
32
You really should use newlines and avoid YELLING.
– Eric Duminil
14 hours ago
4
Also, and more importantly: It is not clear how this answers the question - it looks more like a related anecdote. Please edit and clarify how this answers the question.
– sleske
9 hours ago
4
And more importantly, I believe most people agree that code reviews are a place of conversation - which means the comments and concerns go both ways. Having code/changes/comments criticized is not, and should not, taken personally by most programmers.
– osuka_
5 hours ago
add a comment |
In reading some of these workplace problems, it brings back old memories where I worked in a SLC, UTAH company, in a manufacturing environment as a programmer. In looking back on it, I burned a bridge which I should of NEVER let happen. It was a bridge that I had to cross many times before. My supervisor was known as the company drunk, but he knew his stuff. He had many problems, but that side of him, was none of my business in the first place.
But NEVER tell your immdiate supervisor that he/she is wrong. NEVER! And never in front of his peers or any of his/her supvervisors. That a strike or nail in your coffin.
But before you runoff at the mouth on him/she being wrong, first take some extra time plus some extra effort(s) on your part and research it all the problems out where he/she 'might' be incorrect in full and provide alternate answers or solutions to solve the problem(s). Notice the careful wordings in the above statement??? Use words like "'might' be incorrect" NEVER 'Wrong'. Have supporting documents and answers to support your theories. After you've done your extra homework, set up a time to meet with your supervisor in a meeting form so that it fits his/hers' schedule, not yours! And go into that meeting with an attitude showing that you are workable, friendly, and happy and SHOW IT! One thing I learned with this past supervisor, he could read my attitude and body language and facial features and voice - know everything about me. And with all this effort and a meeting, you could either loose or win.
As my father would say, your supervisor holds the future of your job within the company you work in. In a sense, you are at his/hers' mercy. Oh, one thing I forgot, DON'T raise for voice for anything! Again, as I look back on this job, I could see places where the bridge was starting to burn. My job as a manufacturing programmer, is just like yours. All my work was reviewed by my supervisor period! And I recieved good marks and bad marks on my work and sometimes I was told to redo my programming work, and it was humbling!
So my advice to you as a from manufacturing environment programmer, It's up to you if you want the job, if you like the job and want to stay - it's up to you and your attitude plays a big part in your job. Remember, you are to make your supervisor look GOOD to everyone!! Enough of my preaching... Now enjoy your job.
New contributor
Tom Thorpe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
32
You really should use newlines and avoid YELLING.
– Eric Duminil
14 hours ago
4
Also, and more importantly: It is not clear how this answers the question - it looks more like a related anecdote. Please edit and clarify how this answers the question.
– sleske
9 hours ago
4
And more importantly, I believe most people agree that code reviews are a place of conversation - which means the comments and concerns go both ways. Having code/changes/comments criticized is not, and should not, taken personally by most programmers.
– osuka_
5 hours ago
add a comment |
In reading some of these workplace problems, it brings back old memories where I worked in a SLC, UTAH company, in a manufacturing environment as a programmer. In looking back on it, I burned a bridge which I should of NEVER let happen. It was a bridge that I had to cross many times before. My supervisor was known as the company drunk, but he knew his stuff. He had many problems, but that side of him, was none of my business in the first place.
But NEVER tell your immdiate supervisor that he/she is wrong. NEVER! And never in front of his peers or any of his/her supvervisors. That a strike or nail in your coffin.
But before you runoff at the mouth on him/she being wrong, first take some extra time plus some extra effort(s) on your part and research it all the problems out where he/she 'might' be incorrect in full and provide alternate answers or solutions to solve the problem(s). Notice the careful wordings in the above statement??? Use words like "'might' be incorrect" NEVER 'Wrong'. Have supporting documents and answers to support your theories. After you've done your extra homework, set up a time to meet with your supervisor in a meeting form so that it fits his/hers' schedule, not yours! And go into that meeting with an attitude showing that you are workable, friendly, and happy and SHOW IT! One thing I learned with this past supervisor, he could read my attitude and body language and facial features and voice - know everything about me. And with all this effort and a meeting, you could either loose or win.
As my father would say, your supervisor holds the future of your job within the company you work in. In a sense, you are at his/hers' mercy. Oh, one thing I forgot, DON'T raise for voice for anything! Again, as I look back on this job, I could see places where the bridge was starting to burn. My job as a manufacturing programmer, is just like yours. All my work was reviewed by my supervisor period! And I recieved good marks and bad marks on my work and sometimes I was told to redo my programming work, and it was humbling!
So my advice to you as a from manufacturing environment programmer, It's up to you if you want the job, if you like the job and want to stay - it's up to you and your attitude plays a big part in your job. Remember, you are to make your supervisor look GOOD to everyone!! Enough of my preaching... Now enjoy your job.
New contributor
Tom Thorpe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
In reading some of these workplace problems, it brings back old memories where I worked in a SLC, UTAH company, in a manufacturing environment as a programmer. In looking back on it, I burned a bridge which I should of NEVER let happen. It was a bridge that I had to cross many times before. My supervisor was known as the company drunk, but he knew his stuff. He had many problems, but that side of him, was none of my business in the first place.
But NEVER tell your immdiate supervisor that he/she is wrong. NEVER! And never in front of his peers or any of his/her supvervisors. That a strike or nail in your coffin.
But before you runoff at the mouth on him/she being wrong, first take some extra time plus some extra effort(s) on your part and research it all the problems out where he/she 'might' be incorrect in full and provide alternate answers or solutions to solve the problem(s). Notice the careful wordings in the above statement??? Use words like "'might' be incorrect" NEVER 'Wrong'. Have supporting documents and answers to support your theories. After you've done your extra homework, set up a time to meet with your supervisor in a meeting form so that it fits his/hers' schedule, not yours! And go into that meeting with an attitude showing that you are workable, friendly, and happy and SHOW IT! One thing I learned with this past supervisor, he could read my attitude and body language and facial features and voice - know everything about me. And with all this effort and a meeting, you could either loose or win.
As my father would say, your supervisor holds the future of your job within the company you work in. In a sense, you are at his/hers' mercy. Oh, one thing I forgot, DON'T raise for voice for anything! Again, as I look back on this job, I could see places where the bridge was starting to burn. My job as a manufacturing programmer, is just like yours. All my work was reviewed by my supervisor period! And I recieved good marks and bad marks on my work and sometimes I was told to redo my programming work, and it was humbling!
So my advice to you as a from manufacturing environment programmer, It's up to you if you want the job, if you like the job and want to stay - it's up to you and your attitude plays a big part in your job. Remember, you are to make your supervisor look GOOD to everyone!! Enough of my preaching... Now enjoy your job.
New contributor
Tom Thorpe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 15 hours ago
New contributor
Tom Thorpe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 15 hours ago
Tom ThorpeTom Thorpe
171
171
New contributor
Tom Thorpe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
Tom Thorpe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Tom Thorpe is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
32
You really should use newlines and avoid YELLING.
– Eric Duminil
14 hours ago
4
Also, and more importantly: It is not clear how this answers the question - it looks more like a related anecdote. Please edit and clarify how this answers the question.
– sleske
9 hours ago
4
And more importantly, I believe most people agree that code reviews are a place of conversation - which means the comments and concerns go both ways. Having code/changes/comments criticized is not, and should not, taken personally by most programmers.
– osuka_
5 hours ago
add a comment |
32
You really should use newlines and avoid YELLING.
– Eric Duminil
14 hours ago
4
Also, and more importantly: It is not clear how this answers the question - it looks more like a related anecdote. Please edit and clarify how this answers the question.
– sleske
9 hours ago
4
And more importantly, I believe most people agree that code reviews are a place of conversation - which means the comments and concerns go both ways. Having code/changes/comments criticized is not, and should not, taken personally by most programmers.
– osuka_
5 hours ago
32
32
You really should use newlines and avoid YELLING.
– Eric Duminil
14 hours ago
You really should use newlines and avoid YELLING.
– Eric Duminil
14 hours ago
4
4
Also, and more importantly: It is not clear how this answers the question - it looks more like a related anecdote. Please edit and clarify how this answers the question.
– sleske
9 hours ago
Also, and more importantly: It is not clear how this answers the question - it looks more like a related anecdote. Please edit and clarify how this answers the question.
– sleske
9 hours ago
4
4
And more importantly, I believe most people agree that code reviews are a place of conversation - which means the comments and concerns go both ways. Having code/changes/comments criticized is not, and should not, taken personally by most programmers.
– osuka_
5 hours ago
And more importantly, I believe most people agree that code reviews are a place of conversation - which means the comments and concerns go both ways. Having code/changes/comments criticized is not, and should not, taken personally by most programmers.
– osuka_
5 hours ago
add a comment |
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13
If you have a process for rejecting comments made during code review, just follow that.
– Laconic Droid
17 hours ago
1
@LaconicDroid We do not - as I understand it, code reviews go through a process but are somewhat informal at the office.
– osuka_
17 hours ago
1
@rkeet +1 for the "missed a changelog" point - this may be a recurring issue from an earlier version of the language that the supervisor recalls fighting with in the past, but has been patched/updated/fixed since he moved into management. Not "What an idiot, you don't need to do that", but rather "don't worry, you no longer need to do that"
– Chronocidal
10 hours ago
10
Maybe this should have a country tag? OP's username makes me think this might be Japan, where A) hierarchies are a lot more important and B) age is part of that and "one or two decades" make a huge difference. The gist of the answers will probably be the same, but we might have to put in an extraordinary amount of effort (from western perspective) into staying respectful to the senior. I myself think "being honest is my sign of respect", but that definitely comes from my culture instead of being universal.
– R. Schmitz
10 hours ago
2
Not a workplace answer, but: code reviews should not result in change requests (except if you're violating some policy), it should give suggestions. Since you know the code best, you have to decide to take it or leave it.
– Chris
2 hours ago