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Why did Europeans not widely domesticate foxes?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
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$begingroup$
So I've been thinking for a while about making a story in a world where… well dogs and cats aren't as common and instead are more of a regional domesticated animal, replaced in (mostly Northwestern) Europe by foxes (and also possibly in America — probably only North tho — racoons). Also I'm toying with the idea of throwing otters in there but they've genuinely been used like in Bangladesh and all for fishing, so I'm just gonna extend that along the coast.
My question is: how come it never took that foxes would be hunting companions/pest control in Europe? Doing research I found that recent studies show sign of Bronze Age domestic foxes (more info, more bloc of text too) and I know that there is a Russian/Soviet scientist that tamed and started domesticating foxes in the past 60 years (and I hate that they have to have floppy ears and all cause… they look adorable but so close to dogs, my compelling fiction! x) ). The issue is that foxes eat rodents, hunt rabbits and also have a varied diet that includes fruits. So
- they could take care of rodents messing with stocks of grains just like or even better than cats
- they could be used in areas where large mammals are not as common and hunting rabbits is more durable/profitable 3) they could also be fed an alternate diet that doesn't take away too much from the rare meat in early civilisations.
So does anyone know of any real block that would make my world having domesticated foxes as the n°1 pet in Europe an issue?
Thank you!
fauna science domestication
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
So I've been thinking for a while about making a story in a world where… well dogs and cats aren't as common and instead are more of a regional domesticated animal, replaced in (mostly Northwestern) Europe by foxes (and also possibly in America — probably only North tho — racoons). Also I'm toying with the idea of throwing otters in there but they've genuinely been used like in Bangladesh and all for fishing, so I'm just gonna extend that along the coast.
My question is: how come it never took that foxes would be hunting companions/pest control in Europe? Doing research I found that recent studies show sign of Bronze Age domestic foxes (more info, more bloc of text too) and I know that there is a Russian/Soviet scientist that tamed and started domesticating foxes in the past 60 years (and I hate that they have to have floppy ears and all cause… they look adorable but so close to dogs, my compelling fiction! x) ). The issue is that foxes eat rodents, hunt rabbits and also have a varied diet that includes fruits. So
- they could take care of rodents messing with stocks of grains just like or even better than cats
- they could be used in areas where large mammals are not as common and hunting rabbits is more durable/profitable 3) they could also be fed an alternate diet that doesn't take away too much from the rare meat in early civilisations.
So does anyone know of any real block that would make my world having domesticated foxes as the n°1 pet in Europe an issue?
Thank you!
fauna science domestication
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This doesn't appear to be a worldbuilding question. The help center explains that questions must be specific and answerable (probably check!), must include context (missing), must include restrictions/requirements (missing), and should include research (check!). VTC OT:NAW until Q is improved. Let me know when you're done and I'll retract my vote.
$endgroup$
– JBH
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Actually, and I don't have any sources for this, but I've heard that cats were not brought on for rodent control. Turns out dogs were better at that as well.
$endgroup$
– Muuski
41 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
europe had domesticated ferrets for pest control. they hunted rabbits with them.
$endgroup$
– John
40 mins ago
$begingroup$
Dogs have always been common wherever men lived, but domestic cats are a relatively new arrival in Europe; they arrived first in Greece (from Egypt), reached southern Italy around the 5th century BCE, and were brought to central and northern Europe only in the very late Antiquity. So, depending on when the story is set, domestic cats may not be quite so common.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
38 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
So I've been thinking for a while about making a story in a world where… well dogs and cats aren't as common and instead are more of a regional domesticated animal, replaced in (mostly Northwestern) Europe by foxes (and also possibly in America — probably only North tho — racoons). Also I'm toying with the idea of throwing otters in there but they've genuinely been used like in Bangladesh and all for fishing, so I'm just gonna extend that along the coast.
My question is: how come it never took that foxes would be hunting companions/pest control in Europe? Doing research I found that recent studies show sign of Bronze Age domestic foxes (more info, more bloc of text too) and I know that there is a Russian/Soviet scientist that tamed and started domesticating foxes in the past 60 years (and I hate that they have to have floppy ears and all cause… they look adorable but so close to dogs, my compelling fiction! x) ). The issue is that foxes eat rodents, hunt rabbits and also have a varied diet that includes fruits. So
- they could take care of rodents messing with stocks of grains just like or even better than cats
- they could be used in areas where large mammals are not as common and hunting rabbits is more durable/profitable 3) they could also be fed an alternate diet that doesn't take away too much from the rare meat in early civilisations.
So does anyone know of any real block that would make my world having domesticated foxes as the n°1 pet in Europe an issue?
Thank you!
fauna science domestication
$endgroup$
So I've been thinking for a while about making a story in a world where… well dogs and cats aren't as common and instead are more of a regional domesticated animal, replaced in (mostly Northwestern) Europe by foxes (and also possibly in America — probably only North tho — racoons). Also I'm toying with the idea of throwing otters in there but they've genuinely been used like in Bangladesh and all for fishing, so I'm just gonna extend that along the coast.
My question is: how come it never took that foxes would be hunting companions/pest control in Europe? Doing research I found that recent studies show sign of Bronze Age domestic foxes (more info, more bloc of text too) and I know that there is a Russian/Soviet scientist that tamed and started domesticating foxes in the past 60 years (and I hate that they have to have floppy ears and all cause… they look adorable but so close to dogs, my compelling fiction! x) ). The issue is that foxes eat rodents, hunt rabbits and also have a varied diet that includes fruits. So
- they could take care of rodents messing with stocks of grains just like or even better than cats
- they could be used in areas where large mammals are not as common and hunting rabbits is more durable/profitable 3) they could also be fed an alternate diet that doesn't take away too much from the rare meat in early civilisations.
So does anyone know of any real block that would make my world having domesticated foxes as the n°1 pet in Europe an issue?
Thank you!
fauna science domestication
fauna science domestication
edited 1 hour ago
L.Dutch♦
92.4k29213443
92.4k29213443
asked 1 hour ago
NierninwaNierninwa
765
765
$begingroup$
This doesn't appear to be a worldbuilding question. The help center explains that questions must be specific and answerable (probably check!), must include context (missing), must include restrictions/requirements (missing), and should include research (check!). VTC OT:NAW until Q is improved. Let me know when you're done and I'll retract my vote.
$endgroup$
– JBH
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Actually, and I don't have any sources for this, but I've heard that cats were not brought on for rodent control. Turns out dogs were better at that as well.
$endgroup$
– Muuski
41 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
europe had domesticated ferrets for pest control. they hunted rabbits with them.
$endgroup$
– John
40 mins ago
$begingroup$
Dogs have always been common wherever men lived, but domestic cats are a relatively new arrival in Europe; they arrived first in Greece (from Egypt), reached southern Italy around the 5th century BCE, and were brought to central and northern Europe only in the very late Antiquity. So, depending on when the story is set, domestic cats may not be quite so common.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
38 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
This doesn't appear to be a worldbuilding question. The help center explains that questions must be specific and answerable (probably check!), must include context (missing), must include restrictions/requirements (missing), and should include research (check!). VTC OT:NAW until Q is improved. Let me know when you're done and I'll retract my vote.
$endgroup$
– JBH
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Actually, and I don't have any sources for this, but I've heard that cats were not brought on for rodent control. Turns out dogs were better at that as well.
$endgroup$
– Muuski
41 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
europe had domesticated ferrets for pest control. they hunted rabbits with them.
$endgroup$
– John
40 mins ago
$begingroup$
Dogs have always been common wherever men lived, but domestic cats are a relatively new arrival in Europe; they arrived first in Greece (from Egypt), reached southern Italy around the 5th century BCE, and were brought to central and northern Europe only in the very late Antiquity. So, depending on when the story is set, domestic cats may not be quite so common.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
38 mins ago
$begingroup$
This doesn't appear to be a worldbuilding question. The help center explains that questions must be specific and answerable (probably check!), must include context (missing), must include restrictions/requirements (missing), and should include research (check!). VTC OT:NAW until Q is improved. Let me know when you're done and I'll retract my vote.
$endgroup$
– JBH
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
This doesn't appear to be a worldbuilding question. The help center explains that questions must be specific and answerable (probably check!), must include context (missing), must include restrictions/requirements (missing), and should include research (check!). VTC OT:NAW until Q is improved. Let me know when you're done and I'll retract my vote.
$endgroup$
– JBH
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Actually, and I don't have any sources for this, but I've heard that cats were not brought on for rodent control. Turns out dogs were better at that as well.
$endgroup$
– Muuski
41 mins ago
$begingroup$
Actually, and I don't have any sources for this, but I've heard that cats were not brought on for rodent control. Turns out dogs were better at that as well.
$endgroup$
– Muuski
41 mins ago
1
1
$begingroup$
europe had domesticated ferrets for pest control. they hunted rabbits with them.
$endgroup$
– John
40 mins ago
$begingroup$
europe had domesticated ferrets for pest control. they hunted rabbits with them.
$endgroup$
– John
40 mins ago
$begingroup$
Dogs have always been common wherever men lived, but domestic cats are a relatively new arrival in Europe; they arrived first in Greece (from Egypt), reached southern Italy around the 5th century BCE, and were brought to central and northern Europe only in the very late Antiquity. So, depending on when the story is set, domestic cats may not be quite so common.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
38 mins ago
$begingroup$
Dogs have always been common wherever men lived, but domestic cats are a relatively new arrival in Europe; they arrived first in Greece (from Egypt), reached southern Italy around the 5th century BCE, and were brought to central and northern Europe only in the very late Antiquity. So, depending on when the story is set, domestic cats may not be quite so common.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
38 mins ago
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
As your research correctly found out, foxes can be domesticated.
The main reason why foxes were not domesticated by early humans who instead preferred wolves might be that the latter are more social than foxes.
While wolves live in packs, normally foxes live in pairs or families. So, while for a human is doable to take the role of pack leader, it is a bit more cumbersome to take the role of mating partner.
Of course, since your world is fictional, if your foxes are pack animals, they might be domesticated as well.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Dogs are descended from wolves. The first domesticated dogs were likely wolves.
There are several reasons it would make more sense to domesticate wolves than foxes.
Wolves generally hunt in packs, foxes generally hunt solo
Early humans would have seen the social behavior and realized the pack was similar to their own tribe. It wouldn't be too long before a human decided to take some wolf pups and see if he could integrate them.
Wolves are bigger than foxes
Wolves tend to be larger than foxes and are higher on the food chain. You don't want your dog getting picked off by predators. Both in time invested and emotional attachment losing a trained animal is a big deal, so early humans would pick something reasonably high on the food chain to lessen the chance.
NOTE: There are larger predators such as tigers, but they are more difficult to train, and one mistake will likely lead to life-long injury or death.
Selective Breeding
Domesticated wolf pups would have been selectively bred to be loyal, strong, and obedient. The most violent wolf pups would be put down, and other undesirable traits would be bred out, and desirable traits would be amplified. After a few generations, the new dogs from these pedigrees would be much more valuable than even a new litter of undomesticated wolf-pups due to specialization. There would be no reason to start from 0 with a fox when you have bred dogs capable of producing litters of puppies for you.
NOTE: In modern times, some dogs such as Chihuahua are prized because of their small size and acuity to living indoors. The bred was recognized in 1903.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The first domesticated dogs were likely wolves My understanding is that dogs split from wolves (as a species) well before they were domesticated, which suggests that humans were specifically attracted to dog-like characteristics and not wolf-like characteristics (and as wolves are predators feared by humans, it makes little sense for them to be adopted as humans, IMO).
$endgroup$
– StephenG
44 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Wolves work very well as hunting companions because they are social, have high endurance so they can keep up with human hunting parties, and they target big game like humans.
Foxes aren't social, do not go for prey bigger than themselves, and have moderate endurance. They would not make good hunting companions.
I think you're closer to the mark with cats. Animals that loiter around people enough to be noticed reducing rodent populations, and someone to make the connection to this being good for grain supplies.
You're also on the money for using them to hunt rabbits too (historically this was done with dog breeds like terriers and dachshunds). If wolves are not domesticated for any reason (or even if they are domesticated, but not bred into forms suitable for rabbiting), this would leave that niche open for foxes.
So, what we want really is:
- No wolves domesticated (preferable)
- Abundance of small game that is at least moderately difficult for people to hunt
- Chance
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Foxes would not be useful for hunting they are too small, in fact europe later made a sport out of hunting foxes with dogs.
Domesticating foxes was done in the modern age with modern techniques and knowledge. Domestication is a lot easier when you know how to do it and have large food surpluses to support such endeavors. Animals domesticated in antiquity had to be useful from day one or be a toy for the fabulously wealthy. The bronze age claim is not good evidence, burial with game animals was common and foxes as pests often raided human food stores.
Lastly they didn't need them, the europeans already had animals for hunting (dogs) and pest control, (cats and ferrets). the latter were useful for hunting rabbits as they could chase them down their holes something foxes would not be able to do.
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$begingroup$
Bronze age domestic cats in Europe outside Greece?
$endgroup$
– AlexP
37 mins ago
$begingroup$
The OP does not specify bronze age, cats were widespread in europe before the fall of rome.
$endgroup$
– John
26 mins ago
add a comment |
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4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
As your research correctly found out, foxes can be domesticated.
The main reason why foxes were not domesticated by early humans who instead preferred wolves might be that the latter are more social than foxes.
While wolves live in packs, normally foxes live in pairs or families. So, while for a human is doable to take the role of pack leader, it is a bit more cumbersome to take the role of mating partner.
Of course, since your world is fictional, if your foxes are pack animals, they might be domesticated as well.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As your research correctly found out, foxes can be domesticated.
The main reason why foxes were not domesticated by early humans who instead preferred wolves might be that the latter are more social than foxes.
While wolves live in packs, normally foxes live in pairs or families. So, while for a human is doable to take the role of pack leader, it is a bit more cumbersome to take the role of mating partner.
Of course, since your world is fictional, if your foxes are pack animals, they might be domesticated as well.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As your research correctly found out, foxes can be domesticated.
The main reason why foxes were not domesticated by early humans who instead preferred wolves might be that the latter are more social than foxes.
While wolves live in packs, normally foxes live in pairs or families. So, while for a human is doable to take the role of pack leader, it is a bit more cumbersome to take the role of mating partner.
Of course, since your world is fictional, if your foxes are pack animals, they might be domesticated as well.
$endgroup$
As your research correctly found out, foxes can be domesticated.
The main reason why foxes were not domesticated by early humans who instead preferred wolves might be that the latter are more social than foxes.
While wolves live in packs, normally foxes live in pairs or families. So, while for a human is doable to take the role of pack leader, it is a bit more cumbersome to take the role of mating partner.
Of course, since your world is fictional, if your foxes are pack animals, they might be domesticated as well.
answered 1 hour ago
L.Dutch♦L.Dutch
92.4k29213443
92.4k29213443
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Dogs are descended from wolves. The first domesticated dogs were likely wolves.
There are several reasons it would make more sense to domesticate wolves than foxes.
Wolves generally hunt in packs, foxes generally hunt solo
Early humans would have seen the social behavior and realized the pack was similar to their own tribe. It wouldn't be too long before a human decided to take some wolf pups and see if he could integrate them.
Wolves are bigger than foxes
Wolves tend to be larger than foxes and are higher on the food chain. You don't want your dog getting picked off by predators. Both in time invested and emotional attachment losing a trained animal is a big deal, so early humans would pick something reasonably high on the food chain to lessen the chance.
NOTE: There are larger predators such as tigers, but they are more difficult to train, and one mistake will likely lead to life-long injury or death.
Selective Breeding
Domesticated wolf pups would have been selectively bred to be loyal, strong, and obedient. The most violent wolf pups would be put down, and other undesirable traits would be bred out, and desirable traits would be amplified. After a few generations, the new dogs from these pedigrees would be much more valuable than even a new litter of undomesticated wolf-pups due to specialization. There would be no reason to start from 0 with a fox when you have bred dogs capable of producing litters of puppies for you.
NOTE: In modern times, some dogs such as Chihuahua are prized because of their small size and acuity to living indoors. The bred was recognized in 1903.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The first domesticated dogs were likely wolves My understanding is that dogs split from wolves (as a species) well before they were domesticated, which suggests that humans were specifically attracted to dog-like characteristics and not wolf-like characteristics (and as wolves are predators feared by humans, it makes little sense for them to be adopted as humans, IMO).
$endgroup$
– StephenG
44 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Dogs are descended from wolves. The first domesticated dogs were likely wolves.
There are several reasons it would make more sense to domesticate wolves than foxes.
Wolves generally hunt in packs, foxes generally hunt solo
Early humans would have seen the social behavior and realized the pack was similar to their own tribe. It wouldn't be too long before a human decided to take some wolf pups and see if he could integrate them.
Wolves are bigger than foxes
Wolves tend to be larger than foxes and are higher on the food chain. You don't want your dog getting picked off by predators. Both in time invested and emotional attachment losing a trained animal is a big deal, so early humans would pick something reasonably high on the food chain to lessen the chance.
NOTE: There are larger predators such as tigers, but they are more difficult to train, and one mistake will likely lead to life-long injury or death.
Selective Breeding
Domesticated wolf pups would have been selectively bred to be loyal, strong, and obedient. The most violent wolf pups would be put down, and other undesirable traits would be bred out, and desirable traits would be amplified. After a few generations, the new dogs from these pedigrees would be much more valuable than even a new litter of undomesticated wolf-pups due to specialization. There would be no reason to start from 0 with a fox when you have bred dogs capable of producing litters of puppies for you.
NOTE: In modern times, some dogs such as Chihuahua are prized because of their small size and acuity to living indoors. The bred was recognized in 1903.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
The first domesticated dogs were likely wolves My understanding is that dogs split from wolves (as a species) well before they were domesticated, which suggests that humans were specifically attracted to dog-like characteristics and not wolf-like characteristics (and as wolves are predators feared by humans, it makes little sense for them to be adopted as humans, IMO).
$endgroup$
– StephenG
44 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Dogs are descended from wolves. The first domesticated dogs were likely wolves.
There are several reasons it would make more sense to domesticate wolves than foxes.
Wolves generally hunt in packs, foxes generally hunt solo
Early humans would have seen the social behavior and realized the pack was similar to their own tribe. It wouldn't be too long before a human decided to take some wolf pups and see if he could integrate them.
Wolves are bigger than foxes
Wolves tend to be larger than foxes and are higher on the food chain. You don't want your dog getting picked off by predators. Both in time invested and emotional attachment losing a trained animal is a big deal, so early humans would pick something reasonably high on the food chain to lessen the chance.
NOTE: There are larger predators such as tigers, but they are more difficult to train, and one mistake will likely lead to life-long injury or death.
Selective Breeding
Domesticated wolf pups would have been selectively bred to be loyal, strong, and obedient. The most violent wolf pups would be put down, and other undesirable traits would be bred out, and desirable traits would be amplified. After a few generations, the new dogs from these pedigrees would be much more valuable than even a new litter of undomesticated wolf-pups due to specialization. There would be no reason to start from 0 with a fox when you have bred dogs capable of producing litters of puppies for you.
NOTE: In modern times, some dogs such as Chihuahua are prized because of their small size and acuity to living indoors. The bred was recognized in 1903.
$endgroup$
Dogs are descended from wolves. The first domesticated dogs were likely wolves.
There are several reasons it would make more sense to domesticate wolves than foxes.
Wolves generally hunt in packs, foxes generally hunt solo
Early humans would have seen the social behavior and realized the pack was similar to their own tribe. It wouldn't be too long before a human decided to take some wolf pups and see if he could integrate them.
Wolves are bigger than foxes
Wolves tend to be larger than foxes and are higher on the food chain. You don't want your dog getting picked off by predators. Both in time invested and emotional attachment losing a trained animal is a big deal, so early humans would pick something reasonably high on the food chain to lessen the chance.
NOTE: There are larger predators such as tigers, but they are more difficult to train, and one mistake will likely lead to life-long injury or death.
Selective Breeding
Domesticated wolf pups would have been selectively bred to be loyal, strong, and obedient. The most violent wolf pups would be put down, and other undesirable traits would be bred out, and desirable traits would be amplified. After a few generations, the new dogs from these pedigrees would be much more valuable than even a new litter of undomesticated wolf-pups due to specialization. There would be no reason to start from 0 with a fox when you have bred dogs capable of producing litters of puppies for you.
NOTE: In modern times, some dogs such as Chihuahua are prized because of their small size and acuity to living indoors. The bred was recognized in 1903.
answered 56 mins ago
sevensevenssevensevens
7567
7567
$begingroup$
The first domesticated dogs were likely wolves My understanding is that dogs split from wolves (as a species) well before they were domesticated, which suggests that humans were specifically attracted to dog-like characteristics and not wolf-like characteristics (and as wolves are predators feared by humans, it makes little sense for them to be adopted as humans, IMO).
$endgroup$
– StephenG
44 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The first domesticated dogs were likely wolves My understanding is that dogs split from wolves (as a species) well before they were domesticated, which suggests that humans were specifically attracted to dog-like characteristics and not wolf-like characteristics (and as wolves are predators feared by humans, it makes little sense for them to be adopted as humans, IMO).
$endgroup$
– StephenG
44 mins ago
$begingroup$
The first domesticated dogs were likely wolves My understanding is that dogs split from wolves (as a species) well before they were domesticated, which suggests that humans were specifically attracted to dog-like characteristics and not wolf-like characteristics (and as wolves are predators feared by humans, it makes little sense for them to be adopted as humans, IMO).
$endgroup$
– StephenG
44 mins ago
$begingroup$
The first domesticated dogs were likely wolves My understanding is that dogs split from wolves (as a species) well before they were domesticated, which suggests that humans were specifically attracted to dog-like characteristics and not wolf-like characteristics (and as wolves are predators feared by humans, it makes little sense for them to be adopted as humans, IMO).
$endgroup$
– StephenG
44 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Wolves work very well as hunting companions because they are social, have high endurance so they can keep up with human hunting parties, and they target big game like humans.
Foxes aren't social, do not go for prey bigger than themselves, and have moderate endurance. They would not make good hunting companions.
I think you're closer to the mark with cats. Animals that loiter around people enough to be noticed reducing rodent populations, and someone to make the connection to this being good for grain supplies.
You're also on the money for using them to hunt rabbits too (historically this was done with dog breeds like terriers and dachshunds). If wolves are not domesticated for any reason (or even if they are domesticated, but not bred into forms suitable for rabbiting), this would leave that niche open for foxes.
So, what we want really is:
- No wolves domesticated (preferable)
- Abundance of small game that is at least moderately difficult for people to hunt
- Chance
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Wolves work very well as hunting companions because they are social, have high endurance so they can keep up with human hunting parties, and they target big game like humans.
Foxes aren't social, do not go for prey bigger than themselves, and have moderate endurance. They would not make good hunting companions.
I think you're closer to the mark with cats. Animals that loiter around people enough to be noticed reducing rodent populations, and someone to make the connection to this being good for grain supplies.
You're also on the money for using them to hunt rabbits too (historically this was done with dog breeds like terriers and dachshunds). If wolves are not domesticated for any reason (or even if they are domesticated, but not bred into forms suitable for rabbiting), this would leave that niche open for foxes.
So, what we want really is:
- No wolves domesticated (preferable)
- Abundance of small game that is at least moderately difficult for people to hunt
- Chance
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Wolves work very well as hunting companions because they are social, have high endurance so they can keep up with human hunting parties, and they target big game like humans.
Foxes aren't social, do not go for prey bigger than themselves, and have moderate endurance. They would not make good hunting companions.
I think you're closer to the mark with cats. Animals that loiter around people enough to be noticed reducing rodent populations, and someone to make the connection to this being good for grain supplies.
You're also on the money for using them to hunt rabbits too (historically this was done with dog breeds like terriers and dachshunds). If wolves are not domesticated for any reason (or even if they are domesticated, but not bred into forms suitable for rabbiting), this would leave that niche open for foxes.
So, what we want really is:
- No wolves domesticated (preferable)
- Abundance of small game that is at least moderately difficult for people to hunt
- Chance
$endgroup$
Wolves work very well as hunting companions because they are social, have high endurance so they can keep up with human hunting parties, and they target big game like humans.
Foxes aren't social, do not go for prey bigger than themselves, and have moderate endurance. They would not make good hunting companions.
I think you're closer to the mark with cats. Animals that loiter around people enough to be noticed reducing rodent populations, and someone to make the connection to this being good for grain supplies.
You're also on the money for using them to hunt rabbits too (historically this was done with dog breeds like terriers and dachshunds). If wolves are not domesticated for any reason (or even if they are domesticated, but not bred into forms suitable for rabbiting), this would leave that niche open for foxes.
So, what we want really is:
- No wolves domesticated (preferable)
- Abundance of small game that is at least moderately difficult for people to hunt
- Chance
answered 41 mins ago
YnneadwraithYnneadwraith
5,94111730
5,94111730
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Foxes would not be useful for hunting they are too small, in fact europe later made a sport out of hunting foxes with dogs.
Domesticating foxes was done in the modern age with modern techniques and knowledge. Domestication is a lot easier when you know how to do it and have large food surpluses to support such endeavors. Animals domesticated in antiquity had to be useful from day one or be a toy for the fabulously wealthy. The bronze age claim is not good evidence, burial with game animals was common and foxes as pests often raided human food stores.
Lastly they didn't need them, the europeans already had animals for hunting (dogs) and pest control, (cats and ferrets). the latter were useful for hunting rabbits as they could chase them down their holes something foxes would not be able to do.
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$begingroup$
Bronze age domestic cats in Europe outside Greece?
$endgroup$
– AlexP
37 mins ago
$begingroup$
The OP does not specify bronze age, cats were widespread in europe before the fall of rome.
$endgroup$
– John
26 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Foxes would not be useful for hunting they are too small, in fact europe later made a sport out of hunting foxes with dogs.
Domesticating foxes was done in the modern age with modern techniques and knowledge. Domestication is a lot easier when you know how to do it and have large food surpluses to support such endeavors. Animals domesticated in antiquity had to be useful from day one or be a toy for the fabulously wealthy. The bronze age claim is not good evidence, burial with game animals was common and foxes as pests often raided human food stores.
Lastly they didn't need them, the europeans already had animals for hunting (dogs) and pest control, (cats and ferrets). the latter were useful for hunting rabbits as they could chase them down their holes something foxes would not be able to do.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Bronze age domestic cats in Europe outside Greece?
$endgroup$
– AlexP
37 mins ago
$begingroup$
The OP does not specify bronze age, cats were widespread in europe before the fall of rome.
$endgroup$
– John
26 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Foxes would not be useful for hunting they are too small, in fact europe later made a sport out of hunting foxes with dogs.
Domesticating foxes was done in the modern age with modern techniques and knowledge. Domestication is a lot easier when you know how to do it and have large food surpluses to support such endeavors. Animals domesticated in antiquity had to be useful from day one or be a toy for the fabulously wealthy. The bronze age claim is not good evidence, burial with game animals was common and foxes as pests often raided human food stores.
Lastly they didn't need them, the europeans already had animals for hunting (dogs) and pest control, (cats and ferrets). the latter were useful for hunting rabbits as they could chase them down their holes something foxes would not be able to do.
$endgroup$
Foxes would not be useful for hunting they are too small, in fact europe later made a sport out of hunting foxes with dogs.
Domesticating foxes was done in the modern age with modern techniques and knowledge. Domestication is a lot easier when you know how to do it and have large food surpluses to support such endeavors. Animals domesticated in antiquity had to be useful from day one or be a toy for the fabulously wealthy. The bronze age claim is not good evidence, burial with game animals was common and foxes as pests often raided human food stores.
Lastly they didn't need them, the europeans already had animals for hunting (dogs) and pest control, (cats and ferrets). the latter were useful for hunting rabbits as they could chase them down their holes something foxes would not be able to do.
answered 41 mins ago
JohnJohn
36.5k1048122
36.5k1048122
$begingroup$
Bronze age domestic cats in Europe outside Greece?
$endgroup$
– AlexP
37 mins ago
$begingroup$
The OP does not specify bronze age, cats were widespread in europe before the fall of rome.
$endgroup$
– John
26 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Bronze age domestic cats in Europe outside Greece?
$endgroup$
– AlexP
37 mins ago
$begingroup$
The OP does not specify bronze age, cats were widespread in europe before the fall of rome.
$endgroup$
– John
26 mins ago
$begingroup$
Bronze age domestic cats in Europe outside Greece?
$endgroup$
– AlexP
37 mins ago
$begingroup$
Bronze age domestic cats in Europe outside Greece?
$endgroup$
– AlexP
37 mins ago
$begingroup$
The OP does not specify bronze age, cats were widespread in europe before the fall of rome.
$endgroup$
– John
26 mins ago
$begingroup$
The OP does not specify bronze age, cats were widespread in europe before the fall of rome.
$endgroup$
– John
26 mins ago
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
This doesn't appear to be a worldbuilding question. The help center explains that questions must be specific and answerable (probably check!), must include context (missing), must include restrictions/requirements (missing), and should include research (check!). VTC OT:NAW until Q is improved. Let me know when you're done and I'll retract my vote.
$endgroup$
– JBH
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Actually, and I don't have any sources for this, but I've heard that cats were not brought on for rodent control. Turns out dogs were better at that as well.
$endgroup$
– Muuski
41 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
europe had domesticated ferrets for pest control. they hunted rabbits with them.
$endgroup$
– John
40 mins ago
$begingroup$
Dogs have always been common wherever men lived, but domestic cats are a relatively new arrival in Europe; they arrived first in Greece (from Egypt), reached southern Italy around the 5th century BCE, and were brought to central and northern Europe only in the very late Antiquity. So, depending on when the story is set, domestic cats may not be quite so common.
$endgroup$
– AlexP
38 mins ago