Difference between “generating set” and free product? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer...

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Difference between “generating set” and free product?



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Free group as a free productCommuting Elements in a Free Product of Cyclic GroupsBasic properties of free product amalgamation of groupsFree Product of Groups with PresentationsWhat is the difference between free groups and a free product?A proposition about free productThe free group $mathbb{F}_2$ is a subgroup of a free productgroups with a pair-wise free generating setIs there a link between free actions and free groups?Order of generators in subgroup of Free Product of Cyclic Groups












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$begingroup$


Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?










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$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
    $endgroup$
    – Dietrich Burde
    1 hour ago
















4












$begingroup$


Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?










share|cite|improve this question







New contributor




user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
    $endgroup$
    – Dietrich Burde
    1 hour ago














4












4








4





$begingroup$


Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?










share|cite|improve this question







New contributor




user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?







group-theory free-groups free-product






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Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|cite|improve this question







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user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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asked 1 hour ago









user47370user47370

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user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
    $endgroup$
    – Dietrich Burde
    1 hour ago














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
    $endgroup$
    – Dietrich Burde
    1 hour ago








1




1




$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
    $endgroup$
    – user47370
    50 mins ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    @user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
    $endgroup$
    – giannispapav
    37 mins ago





















2












$begingroup$

As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    1












    $begingroup$

    Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.



    First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).



    What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).



    The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.



    If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_{2n}$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.



    The relations are $g_Gg^{-1}_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^{-1}_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.






    share|cite|improve this answer











    $endgroup$





















      0












      $begingroup$

      The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
      $G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
      $$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
      The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$













      • $begingroup$
        This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
        $endgroup$
        – jgon
        34 mins ago










      • $begingroup$
        @jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
        $endgroup$
        – janmarqz
        27 mins ago










      • $begingroup$
        cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
        $endgroup$
        – jgon
        20 mins ago










      • $begingroup$
        If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
        $endgroup$
        – jgon
        18 mins ago












      • $begingroup$
        @jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
        $endgroup$
        – janmarqz
        12 mins ago














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      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

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      4 Answers
      4






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      2












      $begingroup$

      In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$













      • $begingroup$
        thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
        $endgroup$
        – user47370
        50 mins ago








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
        $endgroup$
        – giannispapav
        37 mins ago


















      2












      $begingroup$

      In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$













      • $begingroup$
        thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
        $endgroup$
        – user47370
        50 mins ago








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
        $endgroup$
        – giannispapav
        37 mins ago
















      2












      2








      2





      $begingroup$

      In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$



      In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.







      share|cite|improve this answer












      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered 1 hour ago









      Alex OrtizAlex Ortiz

      11.5k21442




      11.5k21442












      • $begingroup$
        thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
        $endgroup$
        – user47370
        50 mins ago








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
        $endgroup$
        – giannispapav
        37 mins ago




















      • $begingroup$
        thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
        $endgroup$
        – user47370
        50 mins ago








      • 1




        $begingroup$
        @user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
        $endgroup$
        – giannispapav
        37 mins ago


















      $begingroup$
      thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
      $endgroup$
      – user47370
      50 mins ago






      $begingroup$
      thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
      $endgroup$
      – user47370
      50 mins ago






      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      @user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
      $endgroup$
      – giannispapav
      37 mins ago






      $begingroup$
      @user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
      $endgroup$
      – giannispapav
      37 mins ago













      2












      $begingroup$

      As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$






      share|cite|improve this answer









      $endgroup$


















        2












        $begingroup$

        As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$






        share|cite|improve this answer









        $endgroup$
















          2












          2








          2





          $begingroup$

          As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$






          share|cite|improve this answer









          $endgroup$



          As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$







          share|cite|improve this answer












          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer










          answered 51 mins ago









          giannispapavgiannispapav

          1,990325




          1,990325























              1












              $begingroup$

              Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.



              First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).



              What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).



              The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.



              If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_{2n}$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.



              The relations are $g_Gg^{-1}_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^{-1}_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.






              share|cite|improve this answer











              $endgroup$


















                1












                $begingroup$

                Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.



                First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).



                What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).



                The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.



                If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_{2n}$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.



                The relations are $g_Gg^{-1}_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^{-1}_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.






                share|cite|improve this answer











                $endgroup$
















                  1












                  1








                  1





                  $begingroup$

                  Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.



                  First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).



                  What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).



                  The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.



                  If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_{2n}$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.



                  The relations are $g_Gg^{-1}_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^{-1}_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.






                  share|cite|improve this answer











                  $endgroup$



                  Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.



                  First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).



                  What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).



                  The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.



                  If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_{2n}$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.



                  The relations are $g_Gg^{-1}_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^{-1}_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.







                  share|cite|improve this answer














                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer








                  edited 18 mins ago

























                  answered 23 mins ago









                  jgonjgon

                  16.5k32143




                  16.5k32143























                      0












                      $begingroup$

                      The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
                      $G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
                      $$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
                      The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$













                      • $begingroup$
                        This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        34 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        27 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        20 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        18 mins ago












                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        12 mins ago


















                      0












                      $begingroup$

                      The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
                      $G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
                      $$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
                      The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$













                      • $begingroup$
                        This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        34 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        27 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        20 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        18 mins ago












                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        12 mins ago
















                      0












                      0








                      0





                      $begingroup$

                      The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
                      $G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
                      $$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
                      The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.






                      share|cite|improve this answer











                      $endgroup$



                      The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
                      $G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
                      $$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
                      The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.







                      share|cite|improve this answer














                      share|cite|improve this answer



                      share|cite|improve this answer








                      edited 40 mins ago

























                      answered 59 mins ago









                      janmarqzjanmarqz

                      6,30041630




                      6,30041630












                      • $begingroup$
                        This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        34 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        27 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        20 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        18 mins ago












                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        12 mins ago




















                      • $begingroup$
                        This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        34 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        27 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        20 mins ago










                      • $begingroup$
                        If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
                        $endgroup$
                        – jgon
                        18 mins ago












                      • $begingroup$
                        @jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
                        $endgroup$
                        – janmarqz
                        12 mins ago


















                      $begingroup$
                      This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
                      $endgroup$
                      – jgon
                      34 mins ago




                      $begingroup$
                      This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
                      $endgroup$
                      – jgon
                      34 mins ago












                      $begingroup$
                      @jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
                      $endgroup$
                      – janmarqz
                      27 mins ago




                      $begingroup$
                      @jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
                      $endgroup$
                      – janmarqz
                      27 mins ago












                      $begingroup$
                      cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
                      $endgroup$
                      – jgon
                      20 mins ago




                      $begingroup$
                      cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
                      $endgroup$
                      – jgon
                      20 mins ago












                      $begingroup$
                      If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
                      $endgroup$
                      – jgon
                      18 mins ago






                      $begingroup$
                      If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
                      $endgroup$
                      – jgon
                      18 mins ago














                      $begingroup$
                      @jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
                      $endgroup$
                      – janmarqz
                      12 mins ago






                      $begingroup$
                      @jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
                      $endgroup$
                      – janmarqz
                      12 mins ago












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