Difference between “generating set” and free product? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer...
What force causes entropy to increase?
How to copy the contents of all files with a certain name into a new file?
When did F become S? Why?
Is a pteranodon too powerful as a beast companion for a beast master?
How to grep and cut numbes from a file and sum them
The following signatures were invalid: EXPKEYSIG 1397BC53640DB551
Is there a writing software that you can sort scenes like slides in PowerPoint?
How to politely respond to generic emails requesting a PhD/job in my lab? Without wasting too much time
Take groceries in checked luggage
How to delete random line from file using Unix command?
What information about me do stores get via my credit card?
Are my PIs rude or am I just being too sensitive?
Why does concentrated shear force on a beam influence the whole beam?
What can I do if neighbor is blocking my solar panels intentionally?
Why can't devices on different VLANs, but on the same subnet, communicate?
short and long uuids under /dev/disk/by-uuid
How many people can fit inside Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion?
How to support a colleague who finds meetings extremely tiring?
What aspect of planet Earth must be changed to prevent the industrial revolution?
Working through the single responsibility principle (SRP) in Python when calls are expensive
Is it ok to offer lower paid work as a trial period before negotiating for a full-time job?
Did the new image of black hole confirm the general theory of relativity?
How are presidential pardons supposed to be used?
Keeping a retro style to sci-fi spaceships?
Difference between “generating set” and free product?
The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Free group as a free productCommuting Elements in a Free Product of Cyclic GroupsBasic properties of free product amalgamation of groupsFree Product of Groups with PresentationsWhat is the difference between free groups and a free product?A proposition about free productThe free group $mathbb{F}_2$ is a subgroup of a free productgroups with a pair-wise free generating setIs there a link between free actions and free groups?Order of generators in subgroup of Free Product of Cyclic Groups
$begingroup$
Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?
group-theory free-groups free-product
New contributor
user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?
group-theory free-groups free-product
New contributor
user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?
group-theory free-groups free-product
New contributor
user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
Let $G$ and $H$ be free groups and $g in G$. Is there a difference between $langle H, Grangle$ and the free product $H*G$?. In particular is $langle H ,g rangle = H * langle g rangle$?
group-theory free-groups free-product
group-theory free-groups free-product
New contributor
user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
asked 1 hour ago
user47370user47370
233
233
New contributor
user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
user47370 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago
1
1
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago
add a comment |
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
50 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
37 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.
First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).
What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).
The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.
If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_{2n}$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.
The relations are $g_Gg^{-1}_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^{-1}_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
$G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
$$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
$endgroup$
– jgon
34 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
$endgroup$
– jgon
20 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
$endgroup$
– jgon
18 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
12 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
Your Answer
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "69"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3186562%2fdifference-between-generating-set-and-free-product%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
4 Answers
4
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
50 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
37 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
50 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
37 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.
$endgroup$
In general, yes there is a difference between these two groups. For instance, consider the subgroups $2mathbf Z$ and $3mathbf Z$. Then we have $langle 2mathbf Z , 3mathbf Zrangle = mathbf Z$, but $2mathbf Zast3mathbf Z = 2mathbf Zastlangle 3ranglecongmathbf Zastmathbf Z$ is not an abelian group, since we do not impose any commutation relations between elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $2mathbf Z$ and the elements of (the isomorphic copy of) $3mathbf Z$.
answered 1 hour ago
Alex OrtizAlex Ortiz
11.5k21442
11.5k21442
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
50 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
37 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
50 mins ago
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
37 mins ago
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
50 mins ago
$begingroup$
thank you. That makes sense. In case $H$ is finitely generated and $gnotin H$ is it then true that $langle H,g rangle = H*langle grangle$?
$endgroup$
– user47370
50 mins ago
1
1
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
37 mins ago
$begingroup$
@user47370 If I may, let me try to give a counterexample. Take $A$ an abelian group, $H$ a f.g subgroup of $A$ and $gin A$ but $gnotin H$. Then $langle H,grangle$ is abelian but $H*langle grangle$ is not
$endgroup$
– giannispapav
37 mins ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$
$endgroup$
As @Dietrich Burde suggests you can take $H=G=$(any free group $F_n,nge1$) and then $langle G,Hrangle=H=G$ and $H*G$ is not isomorphic to $H$
answered 51 mins ago
giannispapavgiannispapav
1,990325
1,990325
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.
First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).
What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).
The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.
If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_{2n}$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.
The relations are $g_Gg^{-1}_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^{-1}_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.
First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).
What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).
The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.
If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_{2n}$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.
The relations are $g_Gg^{-1}_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^{-1}_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.
First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).
What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).
The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.
If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_{2n}$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.
The relations are $g_Gg^{-1}_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^{-1}_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.
$endgroup$
Since none of these points are in the answers above, although they answer your question, I'd like to add some comments. I won't add a new counterexample, since the other answers already cover that, just add a more abstract viewpoint.
First of all, there is an essential difference between $langle G,Hrangle$ and $G*H$, namely $langle G,Hrangle$ presupposes that $G$ and $H$ are embedded in some larger group, which I'll call $K$, whereas the free product does not. The group operation on $K$ may impose relations on $G$ and $H$ that are not present in the free product (which has no relations between the elements of $G$ and the elements of $H$).
What this means concretely is that if we consider the homomorphism $phi:G*Hto K$ given by the universal property of the free product, its image is $langle G,Hrangle$, and its kernel tells us whether or not $G*H$ and $langle G,Hrangle$ are isomorphic (technically this only tells us if they're naturally isomorphic, but let's ignore that tangent).
The elements of the kernel of $phi$ will be the relations between elements of $G$ and $H$ imposed by the group operation on $K$.
If we look at giannispapav/Dietrich Burde's counterexamples, if we let $K=G=H=F_n$ be free groups, then $langle G,Hrangle =K$, and $G*H=F_{2n}$, and the map sends the word $g_1h_1g_2h_2cdots g_nh_n$ in $G*H$ to the result of evaluating this product in $K$.
The relations are $g_Gg^{-1}_H=1$, where $g_G$ is an element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $G$, $g^{-1}_H$ is the inverse of the same element $g$ of $K$ regarded as an element of $H$.
edited 18 mins ago
answered 23 mins ago
jgonjgon
16.5k32143
16.5k32143
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
$G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
$$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
$endgroup$
– jgon
34 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
$endgroup$
– jgon
20 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
$endgroup$
– jgon
18 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
12 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
$G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
$$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
$endgroup$
– jgon
34 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
$endgroup$
– jgon
20 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
$endgroup$
– jgon
18 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
12 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
$G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
$$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.
$endgroup$
The response is there is no difference if one of them is a group with at least one has rank above one, because taking their presentations
$G=langle g_1,g_2,...|quad rangle$ and $H=langle h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle$ then you get for the free product the presentation
$$G*H=langle g_1,g_2,...,h_1,h_2,...|quad rangle.$$
The particular case $H*langle grangle=langle h_1,h_2,...,g|quad rangle$ follows.
edited 40 mins ago
answered 59 mins ago
janmarqzjanmarqz
6,30041630
6,30041630
$begingroup$
This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
$endgroup$
– jgon
34 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
$endgroup$
– jgon
20 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
$endgroup$
– jgon
18 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
12 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
$endgroup$
– jgon
34 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
$endgroup$
– jgon
20 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
$endgroup$
– jgon
18 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
12 mins ago
$begingroup$
This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
$endgroup$
– jgon
34 mins ago
$begingroup$
This doesn't make any sense. For a cx to your claim, look at giannispapav's answer (which was added after yours).
$endgroup$
– jgon
34 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: what is cx?... abelian groups aren't free groups in general neither their f.g. subgroups and don't waste your points downvoting
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
27 mins ago
$begingroup$
cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
$endgroup$
– jgon
20 mins ago
$begingroup$
cx means counterexample. I have no idea what abelian groups have to do with anything here. To be clear, as I understand your answer, you are saying that $langle G,Hrangle = G*H$ when one of $G$ or $H$ is free with rank greater than one. This is clearly false, as one can see when we take $G=H=F_n$ for any free group $F_n$. Also my general policy is that I downvote answers that appear to be incorrect or misleading and have nonnegative score. I always leave a comment when downvoting, or upvote an existing comment explaining my downvote.
$endgroup$
– jgon
20 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
$endgroup$
– jgon
18 mins ago
$begingroup$
If you edit, or explain why I am mistaken, I will retract my downvote. I don't think either of us needs to be concerned about 1 or 2 points of rep though. I also don't view it as a waste of rep.
$endgroup$
– jgon
18 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
12 mins ago
$begingroup$
@jgon: ok, ok... do you think that if $G,H$ were different my claim would be true?
$endgroup$
– janmarqz
12 mins ago
|
show 2 more comments
user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
user47370 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3186562%2fdifference-between-generating-set-and-free-product%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
1
$begingroup$
Take $H=G=Bbb Z$.
$endgroup$
– Dietrich Burde
1 hour ago