Long vowel quality before R Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast? ...

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Long vowel quality before R



Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar ManaraListening practice for long vs. short vowelsPronunciation of long eLength of vowels before ‘ss’ in Swiss standard GermanIs the vowel 'r' not pronounced?Kinds of German rounded front vowelHow do I pronounce the letter “r” after a vowel?How to distinguish between long ä and short äShould the vowel also become a bit more open before consonant cluster by conjugation?Cornelsen - Why pronounced with long “e”Da-preposition Words Before Dependent Clauses












4















I study in Berlin and I've noticed that long vowels preceding an R have a very different quality. In specific, they are consistently more open, sometimes mixing with their "short vowel" equivalent.
For example, the starting vowel of the diphthongs in:



Wer ([ve̞ɐ] or even [vɛɐ]), der (de̞ɐ, can go as low as [dɐ]!), Leer



doesn't sound at all like the vowel in



Tee [tʰe:], Bete [be:tə]



Same can be said for the other vowels, but "e" and "o" seem to be affected the most.



Is this considered standard German? Has anyone written anything about it (I love reading books about phonology/phonetics)
Here is a 4 seconds recording of Helmut Krauss on Audible:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=14oobrQXIRCIQmyv4GnR7MNj0wQyRB4zJ



In Northern Germany, the R is pronounced as a gliding ɐ even after short vowels. Can we say that in Northern Germany there is no contrast between short and long vowels before R?










share|improve this question























  • I really like your sentence "I love reading books about phonology/phonetics". Роздрави, впрочем.

    – Christian Geiselmann
    1 hour ago


















4















I study in Berlin and I've noticed that long vowels preceding an R have a very different quality. In specific, they are consistently more open, sometimes mixing with their "short vowel" equivalent.
For example, the starting vowel of the diphthongs in:



Wer ([ve̞ɐ] or even [vɛɐ]), der (de̞ɐ, can go as low as [dɐ]!), Leer



doesn't sound at all like the vowel in



Tee [tʰe:], Bete [be:tə]



Same can be said for the other vowels, but "e" and "o" seem to be affected the most.



Is this considered standard German? Has anyone written anything about it (I love reading books about phonology/phonetics)
Here is a 4 seconds recording of Helmut Krauss on Audible:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=14oobrQXIRCIQmyv4GnR7MNj0wQyRB4zJ



In Northern Germany, the R is pronounced as a gliding ɐ even after short vowels. Can we say that in Northern Germany there is no contrast between short and long vowels before R?










share|improve this question























  • I really like your sentence "I love reading books about phonology/phonetics". Роздрави, впрочем.

    – Christian Geiselmann
    1 hour ago
















4












4








4


1






I study in Berlin and I've noticed that long vowels preceding an R have a very different quality. In specific, they are consistently more open, sometimes mixing with their "short vowel" equivalent.
For example, the starting vowel of the diphthongs in:



Wer ([ve̞ɐ] or even [vɛɐ]), der (de̞ɐ, can go as low as [dɐ]!), Leer



doesn't sound at all like the vowel in



Tee [tʰe:], Bete [be:tə]



Same can be said for the other vowels, but "e" and "o" seem to be affected the most.



Is this considered standard German? Has anyone written anything about it (I love reading books about phonology/phonetics)
Here is a 4 seconds recording of Helmut Krauss on Audible:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=14oobrQXIRCIQmyv4GnR7MNj0wQyRB4zJ



In Northern Germany, the R is pronounced as a gliding ɐ even after short vowels. Can we say that in Northern Germany there is no contrast between short and long vowels before R?










share|improve this question














I study in Berlin and I've noticed that long vowels preceding an R have a very different quality. In specific, they are consistently more open, sometimes mixing with their "short vowel" equivalent.
For example, the starting vowel of the diphthongs in:



Wer ([ve̞ɐ] or even [vɛɐ]), der (de̞ɐ, can go as low as [dɐ]!), Leer



doesn't sound at all like the vowel in



Tee [tʰe:], Bete [be:tə]



Same can be said for the other vowels, but "e" and "o" seem to be affected the most.



Is this considered standard German? Has anyone written anything about it (I love reading books about phonology/phonetics)
Here is a 4 seconds recording of Helmut Krauss on Audible:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=14oobrQXIRCIQmyv4GnR7MNj0wQyRB4zJ



In Northern Germany, the R is pronounced as a gliding ɐ even after short vowels. Can we say that in Northern Germany there is no contrast between short and long vowels before R?







pronunciation standard-german northern-german vowel-length






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 3 hours ago









Yordan GrigorovYordan Grigorov

1327




1327













  • I really like your sentence "I love reading books about phonology/phonetics". Роздрави, впрочем.

    – Christian Geiselmann
    1 hour ago





















  • I really like your sentence "I love reading books about phonology/phonetics". Роздрави, впрочем.

    – Christian Geiselmann
    1 hour ago



















I really like your sentence "I love reading books about phonology/phonetics". Роздрави, впрочем.

– Christian Geiselmann
1 hour ago







I really like your sentence "I love reading books about phonology/phonetics". Роздрави, впрочем.

– Christian Geiselmann
1 hour ago












1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















5














I'm inclined to answer negatively as far as Standard German is concerned. I know you mentioned Northern Germany, but then again your recording is definitely Standard German.



German vowel contrasts combine length and tenseness: [i: ɪ] [y: ʏ] [u: ʊ] [o: ɔ] and finally [e: ɛ], [ø: œ].*



Closed tensed long [e:] and open untensed short [ɛ] are clearly distinct, even if [ɐ] follows: lehrt, kehrt, mehrt, sehr, entbehrtlernt, merkt, nervt, bergt. They remain fully distinct even when [e:] is shortened, for instance when it is prosodically unstressed (e.g. sie lehrt jetzt in TÜbingen).



Some words such as der, wir, ein have weak forms. So if you point to the word and ask someone to pronounce it they will say [de:ɐ̯ vi:ɐ̯ aɪ̯n] but in a sentence, they might be realised as [deɐ̯] > [dɛɐ̯] > [dɐ], [viɐ̯] > [vɪɐ̯] > [vɐ], [n]. This is completely normal and part of Standard German. However, these sort of reductions are not accepted for words such as leer, sehr, etc.



Caveat: Lack of stress and speed of articulation will automatically lead to tensed vowels such as [e] being realised as less tense, i.e. they will become more open. But even then, the minimal pairs mentioned in the paragraph above should remain distinct. (Also note that nothing I have said strictly precludes that R realised as [ɐ] does have an influence on the preceding vowel.)



*Note that the situation for e-like vowels is more complicated than for the others, because [ɛ:] also exists, but not for all speakers.






share|improve this answer


























  • Thank you! Do you think R lower (a bit) the vowel before it, in lexical words like: lehrt, Tor? I don't mean as much as to be considered an [ɛ] and an [ɔ], but as something in between: [e̞].

    – Yordan Grigorov
    1 hour ago











  • And one more thing. Would you consider "gibt" as in "es gibt", "gibt's" as a functional (grammatical) word? Because I have heard it as [gɪ̠pt].

    – Yordan Grigorov
    1 hour ago













  • You might see this as a cop-out, but my points remain: Firstly, whatever change the vowel undergoes, it remains distinct from its untensed counterpart (Tortorkeln); secondly, that the change a tensed long vowel undergoes might be related to stress and/or speed of articulation alone. (How do you feel about the final -e in Trink doch noch 'n Kaffee [ˈkafe]?)

    – David Vogt
    1 hour ago











  • You are completely right that functional vs. lexical was beside the point. I'm going to remove that. Note that e.g. lesen, sehen cannot have short I in the 2nd/3d person singular, so geben is clearly an exception.

    – David Vogt
    1 hour ago











  • Famous example where substitution of an untensed vowel for a tensed one is immediately perceived as non-native: Wohnst du noch oder lebst du schon? (However, no R here.)

    – David Vogt
    56 mins ago














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5














I'm inclined to answer negatively as far as Standard German is concerned. I know you mentioned Northern Germany, but then again your recording is definitely Standard German.



German vowel contrasts combine length and tenseness: [i: ɪ] [y: ʏ] [u: ʊ] [o: ɔ] and finally [e: ɛ], [ø: œ].*



Closed tensed long [e:] and open untensed short [ɛ] are clearly distinct, even if [ɐ] follows: lehrt, kehrt, mehrt, sehr, entbehrtlernt, merkt, nervt, bergt. They remain fully distinct even when [e:] is shortened, for instance when it is prosodically unstressed (e.g. sie lehrt jetzt in TÜbingen).



Some words such as der, wir, ein have weak forms. So if you point to the word and ask someone to pronounce it they will say [de:ɐ̯ vi:ɐ̯ aɪ̯n] but in a sentence, they might be realised as [deɐ̯] > [dɛɐ̯] > [dɐ], [viɐ̯] > [vɪɐ̯] > [vɐ], [n]. This is completely normal and part of Standard German. However, these sort of reductions are not accepted for words such as leer, sehr, etc.



Caveat: Lack of stress and speed of articulation will automatically lead to tensed vowels such as [e] being realised as less tense, i.e. they will become more open. But even then, the minimal pairs mentioned in the paragraph above should remain distinct. (Also note that nothing I have said strictly precludes that R realised as [ɐ] does have an influence on the preceding vowel.)



*Note that the situation for e-like vowels is more complicated than for the others, because [ɛ:] also exists, but not for all speakers.






share|improve this answer


























  • Thank you! Do you think R lower (a bit) the vowel before it, in lexical words like: lehrt, Tor? I don't mean as much as to be considered an [ɛ] and an [ɔ], but as something in between: [e̞].

    – Yordan Grigorov
    1 hour ago











  • And one more thing. Would you consider "gibt" as in "es gibt", "gibt's" as a functional (grammatical) word? Because I have heard it as [gɪ̠pt].

    – Yordan Grigorov
    1 hour ago













  • You might see this as a cop-out, but my points remain: Firstly, whatever change the vowel undergoes, it remains distinct from its untensed counterpart (Tortorkeln); secondly, that the change a tensed long vowel undergoes might be related to stress and/or speed of articulation alone. (How do you feel about the final -e in Trink doch noch 'n Kaffee [ˈkafe]?)

    – David Vogt
    1 hour ago











  • You are completely right that functional vs. lexical was beside the point. I'm going to remove that. Note that e.g. lesen, sehen cannot have short I in the 2nd/3d person singular, so geben is clearly an exception.

    – David Vogt
    1 hour ago











  • Famous example where substitution of an untensed vowel for a tensed one is immediately perceived as non-native: Wohnst du noch oder lebst du schon? (However, no R here.)

    – David Vogt
    56 mins ago


















5














I'm inclined to answer negatively as far as Standard German is concerned. I know you mentioned Northern Germany, but then again your recording is definitely Standard German.



German vowel contrasts combine length and tenseness: [i: ɪ] [y: ʏ] [u: ʊ] [o: ɔ] and finally [e: ɛ], [ø: œ].*



Closed tensed long [e:] and open untensed short [ɛ] are clearly distinct, even if [ɐ] follows: lehrt, kehrt, mehrt, sehr, entbehrtlernt, merkt, nervt, bergt. They remain fully distinct even when [e:] is shortened, for instance when it is prosodically unstressed (e.g. sie lehrt jetzt in TÜbingen).



Some words such as der, wir, ein have weak forms. So if you point to the word and ask someone to pronounce it they will say [de:ɐ̯ vi:ɐ̯ aɪ̯n] but in a sentence, they might be realised as [deɐ̯] > [dɛɐ̯] > [dɐ], [viɐ̯] > [vɪɐ̯] > [vɐ], [n]. This is completely normal and part of Standard German. However, these sort of reductions are not accepted for words such as leer, sehr, etc.



Caveat: Lack of stress and speed of articulation will automatically lead to tensed vowels such as [e] being realised as less tense, i.e. they will become more open. But even then, the minimal pairs mentioned in the paragraph above should remain distinct. (Also note that nothing I have said strictly precludes that R realised as [ɐ] does have an influence on the preceding vowel.)



*Note that the situation for e-like vowels is more complicated than for the others, because [ɛ:] also exists, but not for all speakers.






share|improve this answer


























  • Thank you! Do you think R lower (a bit) the vowel before it, in lexical words like: lehrt, Tor? I don't mean as much as to be considered an [ɛ] and an [ɔ], but as something in between: [e̞].

    – Yordan Grigorov
    1 hour ago











  • And one more thing. Would you consider "gibt" as in "es gibt", "gibt's" as a functional (grammatical) word? Because I have heard it as [gɪ̠pt].

    – Yordan Grigorov
    1 hour ago













  • You might see this as a cop-out, but my points remain: Firstly, whatever change the vowel undergoes, it remains distinct from its untensed counterpart (Tortorkeln); secondly, that the change a tensed long vowel undergoes might be related to stress and/or speed of articulation alone. (How do you feel about the final -e in Trink doch noch 'n Kaffee [ˈkafe]?)

    – David Vogt
    1 hour ago











  • You are completely right that functional vs. lexical was beside the point. I'm going to remove that. Note that e.g. lesen, sehen cannot have short I in the 2nd/3d person singular, so geben is clearly an exception.

    – David Vogt
    1 hour ago











  • Famous example where substitution of an untensed vowel for a tensed one is immediately perceived as non-native: Wohnst du noch oder lebst du schon? (However, no R here.)

    – David Vogt
    56 mins ago
















5












5








5







I'm inclined to answer negatively as far as Standard German is concerned. I know you mentioned Northern Germany, but then again your recording is definitely Standard German.



German vowel contrasts combine length and tenseness: [i: ɪ] [y: ʏ] [u: ʊ] [o: ɔ] and finally [e: ɛ], [ø: œ].*



Closed tensed long [e:] and open untensed short [ɛ] are clearly distinct, even if [ɐ] follows: lehrt, kehrt, mehrt, sehr, entbehrtlernt, merkt, nervt, bergt. They remain fully distinct even when [e:] is shortened, for instance when it is prosodically unstressed (e.g. sie lehrt jetzt in TÜbingen).



Some words such as der, wir, ein have weak forms. So if you point to the word and ask someone to pronounce it they will say [de:ɐ̯ vi:ɐ̯ aɪ̯n] but in a sentence, they might be realised as [deɐ̯] > [dɛɐ̯] > [dɐ], [viɐ̯] > [vɪɐ̯] > [vɐ], [n]. This is completely normal and part of Standard German. However, these sort of reductions are not accepted for words such as leer, sehr, etc.



Caveat: Lack of stress and speed of articulation will automatically lead to tensed vowels such as [e] being realised as less tense, i.e. they will become more open. But even then, the minimal pairs mentioned in the paragraph above should remain distinct. (Also note that nothing I have said strictly precludes that R realised as [ɐ] does have an influence on the preceding vowel.)



*Note that the situation for e-like vowels is more complicated than for the others, because [ɛ:] also exists, but not for all speakers.






share|improve this answer















I'm inclined to answer negatively as far as Standard German is concerned. I know you mentioned Northern Germany, but then again your recording is definitely Standard German.



German vowel contrasts combine length and tenseness: [i: ɪ] [y: ʏ] [u: ʊ] [o: ɔ] and finally [e: ɛ], [ø: œ].*



Closed tensed long [e:] and open untensed short [ɛ] are clearly distinct, even if [ɐ] follows: lehrt, kehrt, mehrt, sehr, entbehrtlernt, merkt, nervt, bergt. They remain fully distinct even when [e:] is shortened, for instance when it is prosodically unstressed (e.g. sie lehrt jetzt in TÜbingen).



Some words such as der, wir, ein have weak forms. So if you point to the word and ask someone to pronounce it they will say [de:ɐ̯ vi:ɐ̯ aɪ̯n] but in a sentence, they might be realised as [deɐ̯] > [dɛɐ̯] > [dɐ], [viɐ̯] > [vɪɐ̯] > [vɐ], [n]. This is completely normal and part of Standard German. However, these sort of reductions are not accepted for words such as leer, sehr, etc.



Caveat: Lack of stress and speed of articulation will automatically lead to tensed vowels such as [e] being realised as less tense, i.e. they will become more open. But even then, the minimal pairs mentioned in the paragraph above should remain distinct. (Also note that nothing I have said strictly precludes that R realised as [ɐ] does have an influence on the preceding vowel.)



*Note that the situation for e-like vowels is more complicated than for the others, because [ɛ:] also exists, but not for all speakers.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 1 hour ago

























answered 2 hours ago









David VogtDavid Vogt

5,6921332




5,6921332













  • Thank you! Do you think R lower (a bit) the vowel before it, in lexical words like: lehrt, Tor? I don't mean as much as to be considered an [ɛ] and an [ɔ], but as something in between: [e̞].

    – Yordan Grigorov
    1 hour ago











  • And one more thing. Would you consider "gibt" as in "es gibt", "gibt's" as a functional (grammatical) word? Because I have heard it as [gɪ̠pt].

    – Yordan Grigorov
    1 hour ago













  • You might see this as a cop-out, but my points remain: Firstly, whatever change the vowel undergoes, it remains distinct from its untensed counterpart (Tortorkeln); secondly, that the change a tensed long vowel undergoes might be related to stress and/or speed of articulation alone. (How do you feel about the final -e in Trink doch noch 'n Kaffee [ˈkafe]?)

    – David Vogt
    1 hour ago











  • You are completely right that functional vs. lexical was beside the point. I'm going to remove that. Note that e.g. lesen, sehen cannot have short I in the 2nd/3d person singular, so geben is clearly an exception.

    – David Vogt
    1 hour ago











  • Famous example where substitution of an untensed vowel for a tensed one is immediately perceived as non-native: Wohnst du noch oder lebst du schon? (However, no R here.)

    – David Vogt
    56 mins ago





















  • Thank you! Do you think R lower (a bit) the vowel before it, in lexical words like: lehrt, Tor? I don't mean as much as to be considered an [ɛ] and an [ɔ], but as something in between: [e̞].

    – Yordan Grigorov
    1 hour ago











  • And one more thing. Would you consider "gibt" as in "es gibt", "gibt's" as a functional (grammatical) word? Because I have heard it as [gɪ̠pt].

    – Yordan Grigorov
    1 hour ago













  • You might see this as a cop-out, but my points remain: Firstly, whatever change the vowel undergoes, it remains distinct from its untensed counterpart (Tortorkeln); secondly, that the change a tensed long vowel undergoes might be related to stress and/or speed of articulation alone. (How do you feel about the final -e in Trink doch noch 'n Kaffee [ˈkafe]?)

    – David Vogt
    1 hour ago











  • You are completely right that functional vs. lexical was beside the point. I'm going to remove that. Note that e.g. lesen, sehen cannot have short I in the 2nd/3d person singular, so geben is clearly an exception.

    – David Vogt
    1 hour ago











  • Famous example where substitution of an untensed vowel for a tensed one is immediately perceived as non-native: Wohnst du noch oder lebst du schon? (However, no R here.)

    – David Vogt
    56 mins ago



















Thank you! Do you think R lower (a bit) the vowel before it, in lexical words like: lehrt, Tor? I don't mean as much as to be considered an [ɛ] and an [ɔ], but as something in between: [e̞].

– Yordan Grigorov
1 hour ago





Thank you! Do you think R lower (a bit) the vowel before it, in lexical words like: lehrt, Tor? I don't mean as much as to be considered an [ɛ] and an [ɔ], but as something in between: [e̞].

– Yordan Grigorov
1 hour ago













And one more thing. Would you consider "gibt" as in "es gibt", "gibt's" as a functional (grammatical) word? Because I have heard it as [gɪ̠pt].

– Yordan Grigorov
1 hour ago







And one more thing. Would you consider "gibt" as in "es gibt", "gibt's" as a functional (grammatical) word? Because I have heard it as [gɪ̠pt].

– Yordan Grigorov
1 hour ago















You might see this as a cop-out, but my points remain: Firstly, whatever change the vowel undergoes, it remains distinct from its untensed counterpart (Tortorkeln); secondly, that the change a tensed long vowel undergoes might be related to stress and/or speed of articulation alone. (How do you feel about the final -e in Trink doch noch 'n Kaffee [ˈkafe]?)

– David Vogt
1 hour ago





You might see this as a cop-out, but my points remain: Firstly, whatever change the vowel undergoes, it remains distinct from its untensed counterpart (Tortorkeln); secondly, that the change a tensed long vowel undergoes might be related to stress and/or speed of articulation alone. (How do you feel about the final -e in Trink doch noch 'n Kaffee [ˈkafe]?)

– David Vogt
1 hour ago













You are completely right that functional vs. lexical was beside the point. I'm going to remove that. Note that e.g. lesen, sehen cannot have short I in the 2nd/3d person singular, so geben is clearly an exception.

– David Vogt
1 hour ago





You are completely right that functional vs. lexical was beside the point. I'm going to remove that. Note that e.g. lesen, sehen cannot have short I in the 2nd/3d person singular, so geben is clearly an exception.

– David Vogt
1 hour ago













Famous example where substitution of an untensed vowel for a tensed one is immediately perceived as non-native: Wohnst du noch oder lebst du schon? (However, no R here.)

– David Vogt
56 mins ago







Famous example where substitution of an untensed vowel for a tensed one is immediately perceived as non-native: Wohnst du noch oder lebst du schon? (However, no R here.)

– David Vogt
56 mins ago




















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