What's the point in a preamp? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In ...

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What's the point in a preamp?

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What's the point in a preamp?



The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are In
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Calculating the value of bypass capacitors for an amplifierAnother question concerning transistorsGetting bad clipping issues with this 3 stage amplifierIs there a difference in the meaning of power and current amplifier terms?What is the function of this transistor?NPN audio amplification, what is the difference between outputing from the collector or emitterWhy would I use an inverting amplifier?Headphone amplifier for guitar with stereo MP3 input - mixingDoes this audio amplifier do differential filtering?Amplifier and Low Pass filter not responding after few minutes of correct output?





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4












$begingroup$


I'm talking in the context of guitar amps, but I assume that this question is relevant for any type of audio amplifier.



Very often in amplifier schematics I see two stages of amplification -- first, the signal is amplified a smaller amount by a preamp circuit and then amplified again by a power amp circuit.



This seems redundant to me. What's the point in amplifying a signal in two small steps rather than just one greater-gain amplification?



My first thought was: does this multi-stage amplification help to reduce unwanted noise from the signal? But the more I think about that, the less it makes sense, since surely the second stage would be amplifying any noise as well.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    There is also the problem of gain bandwidth product. For a given amplifier, more gain means less bandwidth. If you use too much gain in one stage, then you limit the bandwidth of that stage. This can lead to distortion - it takes gain and bandwidth for negative feedback to compensate for distortion.
    $endgroup$
    – JRE
    26 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    @JRE I think in the context of the OP's he's not really talking about multiple "stages" of amplification as much as he's asking why there is both a pre-amp and an amp instead of just one amp. Inside either the pre-amp or the amp itself, it could contain as many actual stages of amplification as it wants.
    $endgroup$
    – Toor
    24 mins ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You don't want the high currents (to the loudspeaker) anywhere near the input signal from the guitar pickup, or the vinyl-record signals.
    $endgroup$
    – analogsystemsrf
    6 mins ago


















4












$begingroup$


I'm talking in the context of guitar amps, but I assume that this question is relevant for any type of audio amplifier.



Very often in amplifier schematics I see two stages of amplification -- first, the signal is amplified a smaller amount by a preamp circuit and then amplified again by a power amp circuit.



This seems redundant to me. What's the point in amplifying a signal in two small steps rather than just one greater-gain amplification?



My first thought was: does this multi-stage amplification help to reduce unwanted noise from the signal? But the more I think about that, the less it makes sense, since surely the second stage would be amplifying any noise as well.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    There is also the problem of gain bandwidth product. For a given amplifier, more gain means less bandwidth. If you use too much gain in one stage, then you limit the bandwidth of that stage. This can lead to distortion - it takes gain and bandwidth for negative feedback to compensate for distortion.
    $endgroup$
    – JRE
    26 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    @JRE I think in the context of the OP's he's not really talking about multiple "stages" of amplification as much as he's asking why there is both a pre-amp and an amp instead of just one amp. Inside either the pre-amp or the amp itself, it could contain as many actual stages of amplification as it wants.
    $endgroup$
    – Toor
    24 mins ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You don't want the high currents (to the loudspeaker) anywhere near the input signal from the guitar pickup, or the vinyl-record signals.
    $endgroup$
    – analogsystemsrf
    6 mins ago














4












4








4





$begingroup$


I'm talking in the context of guitar amps, but I assume that this question is relevant for any type of audio amplifier.



Very often in amplifier schematics I see two stages of amplification -- first, the signal is amplified a smaller amount by a preamp circuit and then amplified again by a power amp circuit.



This seems redundant to me. What's the point in amplifying a signal in two small steps rather than just one greater-gain amplification?



My first thought was: does this multi-stage amplification help to reduce unwanted noise from the signal? But the more I think about that, the less it makes sense, since surely the second stage would be amplifying any noise as well.










share|improve this question









$endgroup$




I'm talking in the context of guitar amps, but I assume that this question is relevant for any type of audio amplifier.



Very often in amplifier schematics I see two stages of amplification -- first, the signal is amplified a smaller amount by a preamp circuit and then amplified again by a power amp circuit.



This seems redundant to me. What's the point in amplifying a signal in two small steps rather than just one greater-gain amplification?



My first thought was: does this multi-stage amplification help to reduce unwanted noise from the signal? But the more I think about that, the less it makes sense, since surely the second stage would be amplifying any noise as well.







amplifier






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked 59 mins ago









Jacob GarbyJacob Garby

27110




27110












  • $begingroup$
    There is also the problem of gain bandwidth product. For a given amplifier, more gain means less bandwidth. If you use too much gain in one stage, then you limit the bandwidth of that stage. This can lead to distortion - it takes gain and bandwidth for negative feedback to compensate for distortion.
    $endgroup$
    – JRE
    26 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    @JRE I think in the context of the OP's he's not really talking about multiple "stages" of amplification as much as he's asking why there is both a pre-amp and an amp instead of just one amp. Inside either the pre-amp or the amp itself, it could contain as many actual stages of amplification as it wants.
    $endgroup$
    – Toor
    24 mins ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You don't want the high currents (to the loudspeaker) anywhere near the input signal from the guitar pickup, or the vinyl-record signals.
    $endgroup$
    – analogsystemsrf
    6 mins ago


















  • $begingroup$
    There is also the problem of gain bandwidth product. For a given amplifier, more gain means less bandwidth. If you use too much gain in one stage, then you limit the bandwidth of that stage. This can lead to distortion - it takes gain and bandwidth for negative feedback to compensate for distortion.
    $endgroup$
    – JRE
    26 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    @JRE I think in the context of the OP's he's not really talking about multiple "stages" of amplification as much as he's asking why there is both a pre-amp and an amp instead of just one amp. Inside either the pre-amp or the amp itself, it could contain as many actual stages of amplification as it wants.
    $endgroup$
    – Toor
    24 mins ago








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    You don't want the high currents (to the loudspeaker) anywhere near the input signal from the guitar pickup, or the vinyl-record signals.
    $endgroup$
    – analogsystemsrf
    6 mins ago
















$begingroup$
There is also the problem of gain bandwidth product. For a given amplifier, more gain means less bandwidth. If you use too much gain in one stage, then you limit the bandwidth of that stage. This can lead to distortion - it takes gain and bandwidth for negative feedback to compensate for distortion.
$endgroup$
– JRE
26 mins ago




$begingroup$
There is also the problem of gain bandwidth product. For a given amplifier, more gain means less bandwidth. If you use too much gain in one stage, then you limit the bandwidth of that stage. This can lead to distortion - it takes gain and bandwidth for negative feedback to compensate for distortion.
$endgroup$
– JRE
26 mins ago












$begingroup$
@JRE I think in the context of the OP's he's not really talking about multiple "stages" of amplification as much as he's asking why there is both a pre-amp and an amp instead of just one amp. Inside either the pre-amp or the amp itself, it could contain as many actual stages of amplification as it wants.
$endgroup$
– Toor
24 mins ago






$begingroup$
@JRE I think in the context of the OP's he's not really talking about multiple "stages" of amplification as much as he's asking why there is both a pre-amp and an amp instead of just one amp. Inside either the pre-amp or the amp itself, it could contain as many actual stages of amplification as it wants.
$endgroup$
– Toor
24 mins ago






1




1




$begingroup$
You don't want the high currents (to the loudspeaker) anywhere near the input signal from the guitar pickup, or the vinyl-record signals.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
6 mins ago




$begingroup$
You don't want the high currents (to the loudspeaker) anywhere near the input signal from the guitar pickup, or the vinyl-record signals.
$endgroup$
– analogsystemsrf
6 mins ago










4 Answers
4






active

oldest

votes


















5












$begingroup$

Quick and dirty answer:



Buffering is one reason. Interconnects between things can have a lot of capacitance and require a lot (comparatively) of current to drive.



Noise immunity is another. Think about this scenario: Send a signal through a wire where it picks up, say, 10mV noise, then amplify it by 100x: total noise, 1000mV. But if you instead amplify it by 10x, then send it through the wire where it gets 10mV noise, then amplify by another 10x, your total signal amplification is still 100x, but your total noise is only 100mV.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$





















    3












    $begingroup$

    In audio gear, it is useful to do most of the signal manipulation at a standard level, known as "line level". This includes mixing, equalization, compression, etc.



    Some signal sources (microphones, guitar pickups, etc.) do not inherently produce line level outputs, so a preamplifier is used to boost the signal to that level. Some signal sources (record players) require not only a boost, but also a special equalization to flatten the frequency response.



    Then, after all of the signal processing is done, a second, "power" amplifier is used to drive the speaker(s).



    This kind of modularity allows signal sources, processing stages, and different kinds of speakers to be mixed and matched freely.






    share|improve this answer









    $endgroup$





















      3












      $begingroup$

      Let me ask you this...how big would the amplifier hardware have to be to do its job properly? If it was this size, could it go right next to the pickup where the noise would the lowest and signal integrity is highest?



      If it can't, then it has to be farther away. But if it's farther away, can the pickup natively produce a signal that can be reliably and accurately transmitted all the way to the single-stage amp?



      If not, then you need another amplifier that is physically small enough to go right next to the signal source and reinforce the the signal just enough so that it can be accurately transmitted to where there is more physical space for the rest of the hardware. This reinforcement can come in the form of re-transmitting the pickup's high impedance output as a low impedance output, or boosting the signal levels just a bit so that the transmission noise won't drown out the signal.






      share|improve this answer











      $endgroup$





















        2












        $begingroup$

        A major reason for separate boxes for preamps and poweramps is the GROUND currents.



        Suppose you built the preamp and the poweramp on the same PCB. Why not?



        Some of the loudspeaker current will be flowing around on the GROUND, and end up combining with the input signal.



        To minimize this "combining", make that PCB long and thin, so the PowerAmp Grounds are far away from the PreAmp Grounds.



        How to improve on this? use long thing regions between the Preamp and the Poweramp.



        In the extreme, a coax cable provides a long-thin-region, to ensure very small combining of input and output.



        Give low millivolt signals from a vinyl record Moving Magnet cartridge, or even 0.5 millivolt from Moving Coil cartridges, that become near-100-volt audio outputs, the entire system needs 100,000:1 isolation.





        schematic





        simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab





        share









        $endgroup$














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          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

          votes








          4 Answers
          4






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          5












          $begingroup$

          Quick and dirty answer:



          Buffering is one reason. Interconnects between things can have a lot of capacitance and require a lot (comparatively) of current to drive.



          Noise immunity is another. Think about this scenario: Send a signal through a wire where it picks up, say, 10mV noise, then amplify it by 100x: total noise, 1000mV. But if you instead amplify it by 10x, then send it through the wire where it gets 10mV noise, then amplify by another 10x, your total signal amplification is still 100x, but your total noise is only 100mV.






          share|improve this answer









          $endgroup$


















            5












            $begingroup$

            Quick and dirty answer:



            Buffering is one reason. Interconnects between things can have a lot of capacitance and require a lot (comparatively) of current to drive.



            Noise immunity is another. Think about this scenario: Send a signal through a wire where it picks up, say, 10mV noise, then amplify it by 100x: total noise, 1000mV. But if you instead amplify it by 10x, then send it through the wire where it gets 10mV noise, then amplify by another 10x, your total signal amplification is still 100x, but your total noise is only 100mV.






            share|improve this answer









            $endgroup$
















              5












              5








              5





              $begingroup$

              Quick and dirty answer:



              Buffering is one reason. Interconnects between things can have a lot of capacitance and require a lot (comparatively) of current to drive.



              Noise immunity is another. Think about this scenario: Send a signal through a wire where it picks up, say, 10mV noise, then amplify it by 100x: total noise, 1000mV. But if you instead amplify it by 10x, then send it through the wire where it gets 10mV noise, then amplify by another 10x, your total signal amplification is still 100x, but your total noise is only 100mV.






              share|improve this answer









              $endgroup$



              Quick and dirty answer:



              Buffering is one reason. Interconnects between things can have a lot of capacitance and require a lot (comparatively) of current to drive.



              Noise immunity is another. Think about this scenario: Send a signal through a wire where it picks up, say, 10mV noise, then amplify it by 100x: total noise, 1000mV. But if you instead amplify it by 10x, then send it through the wire where it gets 10mV noise, then amplify by another 10x, your total signal amplification is still 100x, but your total noise is only 100mV.







              share|improve this answer












              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer










              answered 37 mins ago









              HearthHearth

              5,07611339




              5,07611339

























                  3












                  $begingroup$

                  In audio gear, it is useful to do most of the signal manipulation at a standard level, known as "line level". This includes mixing, equalization, compression, etc.



                  Some signal sources (microphones, guitar pickups, etc.) do not inherently produce line level outputs, so a preamplifier is used to boost the signal to that level. Some signal sources (record players) require not only a boost, but also a special equalization to flatten the frequency response.



                  Then, after all of the signal processing is done, a second, "power" amplifier is used to drive the speaker(s).



                  This kind of modularity allows signal sources, processing stages, and different kinds of speakers to be mixed and matched freely.






                  share|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$


















                    3












                    $begingroup$

                    In audio gear, it is useful to do most of the signal manipulation at a standard level, known as "line level". This includes mixing, equalization, compression, etc.



                    Some signal sources (microphones, guitar pickups, etc.) do not inherently produce line level outputs, so a preamplifier is used to boost the signal to that level. Some signal sources (record players) require not only a boost, but also a special equalization to flatten the frequency response.



                    Then, after all of the signal processing is done, a second, "power" amplifier is used to drive the speaker(s).



                    This kind of modularity allows signal sources, processing stages, and different kinds of speakers to be mixed and matched freely.






                    share|improve this answer









                    $endgroup$
















                      3












                      3








                      3





                      $begingroup$

                      In audio gear, it is useful to do most of the signal manipulation at a standard level, known as "line level". This includes mixing, equalization, compression, etc.



                      Some signal sources (microphones, guitar pickups, etc.) do not inherently produce line level outputs, so a preamplifier is used to boost the signal to that level. Some signal sources (record players) require not only a boost, but also a special equalization to flatten the frequency response.



                      Then, after all of the signal processing is done, a second, "power" amplifier is used to drive the speaker(s).



                      This kind of modularity allows signal sources, processing stages, and different kinds of speakers to be mixed and matched freely.






                      share|improve this answer









                      $endgroup$



                      In audio gear, it is useful to do most of the signal manipulation at a standard level, known as "line level". This includes mixing, equalization, compression, etc.



                      Some signal sources (microphones, guitar pickups, etc.) do not inherently produce line level outputs, so a preamplifier is used to boost the signal to that level. Some signal sources (record players) require not only a boost, but also a special equalization to flatten the frequency response.



                      Then, after all of the signal processing is done, a second, "power" amplifier is used to drive the speaker(s).



                      This kind of modularity allows signal sources, processing stages, and different kinds of speakers to be mixed and matched freely.







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered 33 mins ago









                      Dave TweedDave Tweed

                      124k10153268




                      124k10153268























                          3












                          $begingroup$

                          Let me ask you this...how big would the amplifier hardware have to be to do its job properly? If it was this size, could it go right next to the pickup where the noise would the lowest and signal integrity is highest?



                          If it can't, then it has to be farther away. But if it's farther away, can the pickup natively produce a signal that can be reliably and accurately transmitted all the way to the single-stage amp?



                          If not, then you need another amplifier that is physically small enough to go right next to the signal source and reinforce the the signal just enough so that it can be accurately transmitted to where there is more physical space for the rest of the hardware. This reinforcement can come in the form of re-transmitting the pickup's high impedance output as a low impedance output, or boosting the signal levels just a bit so that the transmission noise won't drown out the signal.






                          share|improve this answer











                          $endgroup$


















                            3












                            $begingroup$

                            Let me ask you this...how big would the amplifier hardware have to be to do its job properly? If it was this size, could it go right next to the pickup where the noise would the lowest and signal integrity is highest?



                            If it can't, then it has to be farther away. But if it's farther away, can the pickup natively produce a signal that can be reliably and accurately transmitted all the way to the single-stage amp?



                            If not, then you need another amplifier that is physically small enough to go right next to the signal source and reinforce the the signal just enough so that it can be accurately transmitted to where there is more physical space for the rest of the hardware. This reinforcement can come in the form of re-transmitting the pickup's high impedance output as a low impedance output, or boosting the signal levels just a bit so that the transmission noise won't drown out the signal.






                            share|improve this answer











                            $endgroup$
















                              3












                              3








                              3





                              $begingroup$

                              Let me ask you this...how big would the amplifier hardware have to be to do its job properly? If it was this size, could it go right next to the pickup where the noise would the lowest and signal integrity is highest?



                              If it can't, then it has to be farther away. But if it's farther away, can the pickup natively produce a signal that can be reliably and accurately transmitted all the way to the single-stage amp?



                              If not, then you need another amplifier that is physically small enough to go right next to the signal source and reinforce the the signal just enough so that it can be accurately transmitted to where there is more physical space for the rest of the hardware. This reinforcement can come in the form of re-transmitting the pickup's high impedance output as a low impedance output, or boosting the signal levels just a bit so that the transmission noise won't drown out the signal.






                              share|improve this answer











                              $endgroup$



                              Let me ask you this...how big would the amplifier hardware have to be to do its job properly? If it was this size, could it go right next to the pickup where the noise would the lowest and signal integrity is highest?



                              If it can't, then it has to be farther away. But if it's farther away, can the pickup natively produce a signal that can be reliably and accurately transmitted all the way to the single-stage amp?



                              If not, then you need another amplifier that is physically small enough to go right next to the signal source and reinforce the the signal just enough so that it can be accurately transmitted to where there is more physical space for the rest of the hardware. This reinforcement can come in the form of re-transmitting the pickup's high impedance output as a low impedance output, or boosting the signal levels just a bit so that the transmission noise won't drown out the signal.







                              share|improve this answer














                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer








                              edited 26 mins ago

























                              answered 34 mins ago









                              ToorToor

                              1,634212




                              1,634212























                                  2












                                  $begingroup$

                                  A major reason for separate boxes for preamps and poweramps is the GROUND currents.



                                  Suppose you built the preamp and the poweramp on the same PCB. Why not?



                                  Some of the loudspeaker current will be flowing around on the GROUND, and end up combining with the input signal.



                                  To minimize this "combining", make that PCB long and thin, so the PowerAmp Grounds are far away from the PreAmp Grounds.



                                  How to improve on this? use long thing regions between the Preamp and the Poweramp.



                                  In the extreme, a coax cable provides a long-thin-region, to ensure very small combining of input and output.



                                  Give low millivolt signals from a vinyl record Moving Magnet cartridge, or even 0.5 millivolt from Moving Coil cartridges, that become near-100-volt audio outputs, the entire system needs 100,000:1 isolation.





                                  schematic





                                  simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab





                                  share









                                  $endgroup$


















                                    2












                                    $begingroup$

                                    A major reason for separate boxes for preamps and poweramps is the GROUND currents.



                                    Suppose you built the preamp and the poweramp on the same PCB. Why not?



                                    Some of the loudspeaker current will be flowing around on the GROUND, and end up combining with the input signal.



                                    To minimize this "combining", make that PCB long and thin, so the PowerAmp Grounds are far away from the PreAmp Grounds.



                                    How to improve on this? use long thing regions between the Preamp and the Poweramp.



                                    In the extreme, a coax cable provides a long-thin-region, to ensure very small combining of input and output.



                                    Give low millivolt signals from a vinyl record Moving Magnet cartridge, or even 0.5 millivolt from Moving Coil cartridges, that become near-100-volt audio outputs, the entire system needs 100,000:1 isolation.





                                    schematic





                                    simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab





                                    share









                                    $endgroup$
















                                      2












                                      2








                                      2





                                      $begingroup$

                                      A major reason for separate boxes for preamps and poweramps is the GROUND currents.



                                      Suppose you built the preamp and the poweramp on the same PCB. Why not?



                                      Some of the loudspeaker current will be flowing around on the GROUND, and end up combining with the input signal.



                                      To minimize this "combining", make that PCB long and thin, so the PowerAmp Grounds are far away from the PreAmp Grounds.



                                      How to improve on this? use long thing regions between the Preamp and the Poweramp.



                                      In the extreme, a coax cable provides a long-thin-region, to ensure very small combining of input and output.



                                      Give low millivolt signals from a vinyl record Moving Magnet cartridge, or even 0.5 millivolt from Moving Coil cartridges, that become near-100-volt audio outputs, the entire system needs 100,000:1 isolation.





                                      schematic





                                      simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab





                                      share









                                      $endgroup$



                                      A major reason for separate boxes for preamps and poweramps is the GROUND currents.



                                      Suppose you built the preamp and the poweramp on the same PCB. Why not?



                                      Some of the loudspeaker current will be flowing around on the GROUND, and end up combining with the input signal.



                                      To minimize this "combining", make that PCB long and thin, so the PowerAmp Grounds are far away from the PreAmp Grounds.



                                      How to improve on this? use long thing regions between the Preamp and the Poweramp.



                                      In the extreme, a coax cable provides a long-thin-region, to ensure very small combining of input and output.



                                      Give low millivolt signals from a vinyl record Moving Magnet cartridge, or even 0.5 millivolt from Moving Coil cartridges, that become near-100-volt audio outputs, the entire system needs 100,000:1 isolation.





                                      schematic





                                      simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab






                                      share











                                      share


                                      share










                                      answered 8 mins ago









                                      analogsystemsrfanalogsystemsrf

                                      16.1k2822




                                      16.1k2822






























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