Is there any downside to Voldemort getting “killed”?Can the Killing Curse be used to commit suicide?Is...
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Is there any downside to Voldemort getting “killed”?
Can the Killing Curse be used to commit suicide?Is Ginny Weasley Considered a Temporary Horcrux?Why did Lily's enchantments work for Voldemort?Why did Dumbledore insist that Voldemort had to be the one to “kill” Harry?Was Voldemort intending to create a horcrux when he attacked Harry Potter?What kind of long term effects would Voldemort's soul have had on Harry?How was Voldemort supposed to regenerate from a Horcrux?Why should the Horcruxes be destroyed first?Was Lily's sacrificial protection on Harry still in effect AFTER it protected him in Forbidden Forest?Who was killed to make Nagini a Horcrux (Frank Bryce or Bertha Jorkins)?Why did Voldemort wait so long before trying to make his final Horcrux?
A large part of the plot of Goblet of Fire hinges on the fact that Voldemort insisted on specifically using Harry for his rebirthing ritual. As he says in the graveyard:
But I knew the one I must use, if I was to rise again, more powerful than I had been when I had fallen. I wanted Harry Potter's blood.
This desire to use Harry caused Voldemort to need to wait an entire additional year to get his body back — a year in which he was entirely dependent on others.
As far as I know there is no limit to how many times you can be "killed" and restored. So theoretically, Voldemort could have restored his body immediately using the blood of any enemy, as Wormtail had suggested. If he still wanted Harry's blood he could continue with the plan for the rest of the year while enjoying the full powers of Voldemort-with-a-body. Then when he kidnaps Harry he could "kill" himself and do another rebirthing process with Harry's blood.
Now I know that Voldemort describes the dying process as very painful:
Aaah... pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it.
But he's not really the type to let a bit of pain stop him from having an additional year of being the baddest wizard in town.
I'm also aware of Dumbledore's statement:
He had rendered his soul so unstable that it broke apart when he committed those acts of unspeakable evil, the murder of your parents, the attempted killing of a child.
But Voldemort did not know this, and frankly, he might not even care if bits of his soul get blasted into other people — if anything, he might like it because now other people have to be killed before he can be killed.
So, is there any other negative effect of getting "killed" (i.e. besides for pain and destabilizing your soul) that Voldemort would have been aware of?
Note: I'm not asking why he didn't do this; I'm only asking if he was aware of a negative effect (which of course might have convinced him not to do it).
harry-potter voldemort
|
show 1 more comment
A large part of the plot of Goblet of Fire hinges on the fact that Voldemort insisted on specifically using Harry for his rebirthing ritual. As he says in the graveyard:
But I knew the one I must use, if I was to rise again, more powerful than I had been when I had fallen. I wanted Harry Potter's blood.
This desire to use Harry caused Voldemort to need to wait an entire additional year to get his body back — a year in which he was entirely dependent on others.
As far as I know there is no limit to how many times you can be "killed" and restored. So theoretically, Voldemort could have restored his body immediately using the blood of any enemy, as Wormtail had suggested. If he still wanted Harry's blood he could continue with the plan for the rest of the year while enjoying the full powers of Voldemort-with-a-body. Then when he kidnaps Harry he could "kill" himself and do another rebirthing process with Harry's blood.
Now I know that Voldemort describes the dying process as very painful:
Aaah... pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it.
But he's not really the type to let a bit of pain stop him from having an additional year of being the baddest wizard in town.
I'm also aware of Dumbledore's statement:
He had rendered his soul so unstable that it broke apart when he committed those acts of unspeakable evil, the murder of your parents, the attempted killing of a child.
But Voldemort did not know this, and frankly, he might not even care if bits of his soul get blasted into other people — if anything, he might like it because now other people have to be killed before he can be killed.
So, is there any other negative effect of getting "killed" (i.e. besides for pain and destabilizing your soul) that Voldemort would have been aware of?
Note: I'm not asking why he didn't do this; I'm only asking if he was aware of a negative effect (which of course might have convinced him not to do it).
harry-potter voldemort
10
If he hadn't waited until the end of the year it would have messed up the book series.
– Valorum
Nov 28 '18 at 21:39
1
the rebirthing process was an elaborate spell to begin with, requiring more than just a single element of enemy blood. Since you'll need an enemy's blood anyway, and this particular enemy's blood will not only do the initial job, but give you extra protection against him (to prevent the same unfortunate experience of book 1) and you are egotistically confident that your plan to capture said enemy's blood will work, why not stick with that plan? Also - going with your idea would leave Wormtail w/ no hands :D
– NKCampbell
Nov 28 '18 at 22:17
2
I think it's likely because of the amount of struggle he had just to get to the point where he could even perform the ritual. He spent about 13 years like that, so I think he didn't want to go all the way back to square one versus spending a little extra time near the end of the process so he could acquire Harry's blood.
– Kai
Nov 28 '18 at 23:04
1
@Kai It wasn't just a little extra time. It was almost an entire year.
– Alex
Nov 28 '18 at 23:29
@NKCampbell Why not stick with that plan? Because it requires spending a year as a grotesque baby-like creature entirely dependent on Wormtail, when instead he could spend the year killing people and building up his power again.
– Alex
Nov 28 '18 at 23:31
|
show 1 more comment
A large part of the plot of Goblet of Fire hinges on the fact that Voldemort insisted on specifically using Harry for his rebirthing ritual. As he says in the graveyard:
But I knew the one I must use, if I was to rise again, more powerful than I had been when I had fallen. I wanted Harry Potter's blood.
This desire to use Harry caused Voldemort to need to wait an entire additional year to get his body back — a year in which he was entirely dependent on others.
As far as I know there is no limit to how many times you can be "killed" and restored. So theoretically, Voldemort could have restored his body immediately using the blood of any enemy, as Wormtail had suggested. If he still wanted Harry's blood he could continue with the plan for the rest of the year while enjoying the full powers of Voldemort-with-a-body. Then when he kidnaps Harry he could "kill" himself and do another rebirthing process with Harry's blood.
Now I know that Voldemort describes the dying process as very painful:
Aaah... pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it.
But he's not really the type to let a bit of pain stop him from having an additional year of being the baddest wizard in town.
I'm also aware of Dumbledore's statement:
He had rendered his soul so unstable that it broke apart when he committed those acts of unspeakable evil, the murder of your parents, the attempted killing of a child.
But Voldemort did not know this, and frankly, he might not even care if bits of his soul get blasted into other people — if anything, he might like it because now other people have to be killed before he can be killed.
So, is there any other negative effect of getting "killed" (i.e. besides for pain and destabilizing your soul) that Voldemort would have been aware of?
Note: I'm not asking why he didn't do this; I'm only asking if he was aware of a negative effect (which of course might have convinced him not to do it).
harry-potter voldemort
A large part of the plot of Goblet of Fire hinges on the fact that Voldemort insisted on specifically using Harry for his rebirthing ritual. As he says in the graveyard:
But I knew the one I must use, if I was to rise again, more powerful than I had been when I had fallen. I wanted Harry Potter's blood.
This desire to use Harry caused Voldemort to need to wait an entire additional year to get his body back — a year in which he was entirely dependent on others.
As far as I know there is no limit to how many times you can be "killed" and restored. So theoretically, Voldemort could have restored his body immediately using the blood of any enemy, as Wormtail had suggested. If he still wanted Harry's blood he could continue with the plan for the rest of the year while enjoying the full powers of Voldemort-with-a-body. Then when he kidnaps Harry he could "kill" himself and do another rebirthing process with Harry's blood.
Now I know that Voldemort describes the dying process as very painful:
Aaah... pain beyond pain, my friends; nothing could have prepared me for it.
But he's not really the type to let a bit of pain stop him from having an additional year of being the baddest wizard in town.
I'm also aware of Dumbledore's statement:
He had rendered his soul so unstable that it broke apart when he committed those acts of unspeakable evil, the murder of your parents, the attempted killing of a child.
But Voldemort did not know this, and frankly, he might not even care if bits of his soul get blasted into other people — if anything, he might like it because now other people have to be killed before he can be killed.
So, is there any other negative effect of getting "killed" (i.e. besides for pain and destabilizing your soul) that Voldemort would have been aware of?
Note: I'm not asking why he didn't do this; I'm only asking if he was aware of a negative effect (which of course might have convinced him not to do it).
harry-potter voldemort
harry-potter voldemort
edited 14 mins ago
Alex
asked Nov 28 '18 at 21:31
AlexAlex
17.9k35391
17.9k35391
10
If he hadn't waited until the end of the year it would have messed up the book series.
– Valorum
Nov 28 '18 at 21:39
1
the rebirthing process was an elaborate spell to begin with, requiring more than just a single element of enemy blood. Since you'll need an enemy's blood anyway, and this particular enemy's blood will not only do the initial job, but give you extra protection against him (to prevent the same unfortunate experience of book 1) and you are egotistically confident that your plan to capture said enemy's blood will work, why not stick with that plan? Also - going with your idea would leave Wormtail w/ no hands :D
– NKCampbell
Nov 28 '18 at 22:17
2
I think it's likely because of the amount of struggle he had just to get to the point where he could even perform the ritual. He spent about 13 years like that, so I think he didn't want to go all the way back to square one versus spending a little extra time near the end of the process so he could acquire Harry's blood.
– Kai
Nov 28 '18 at 23:04
1
@Kai It wasn't just a little extra time. It was almost an entire year.
– Alex
Nov 28 '18 at 23:29
@NKCampbell Why not stick with that plan? Because it requires spending a year as a grotesque baby-like creature entirely dependent on Wormtail, when instead he could spend the year killing people and building up his power again.
– Alex
Nov 28 '18 at 23:31
|
show 1 more comment
10
If he hadn't waited until the end of the year it would have messed up the book series.
– Valorum
Nov 28 '18 at 21:39
1
the rebirthing process was an elaborate spell to begin with, requiring more than just a single element of enemy blood. Since you'll need an enemy's blood anyway, and this particular enemy's blood will not only do the initial job, but give you extra protection against him (to prevent the same unfortunate experience of book 1) and you are egotistically confident that your plan to capture said enemy's blood will work, why not stick with that plan? Also - going with your idea would leave Wormtail w/ no hands :D
– NKCampbell
Nov 28 '18 at 22:17
2
I think it's likely because of the amount of struggle he had just to get to the point where he could even perform the ritual. He spent about 13 years like that, so I think he didn't want to go all the way back to square one versus spending a little extra time near the end of the process so he could acquire Harry's blood.
– Kai
Nov 28 '18 at 23:04
1
@Kai It wasn't just a little extra time. It was almost an entire year.
– Alex
Nov 28 '18 at 23:29
@NKCampbell Why not stick with that plan? Because it requires spending a year as a grotesque baby-like creature entirely dependent on Wormtail, when instead he could spend the year killing people and building up his power again.
– Alex
Nov 28 '18 at 23:31
10
10
If he hadn't waited until the end of the year it would have messed up the book series.
– Valorum
Nov 28 '18 at 21:39
If he hadn't waited until the end of the year it would have messed up the book series.
– Valorum
Nov 28 '18 at 21:39
1
1
the rebirthing process was an elaborate spell to begin with, requiring more than just a single element of enemy blood. Since you'll need an enemy's blood anyway, and this particular enemy's blood will not only do the initial job, but give you extra protection against him (to prevent the same unfortunate experience of book 1) and you are egotistically confident that your plan to capture said enemy's blood will work, why not stick with that plan? Also - going with your idea would leave Wormtail w/ no hands :D
– NKCampbell
Nov 28 '18 at 22:17
the rebirthing process was an elaborate spell to begin with, requiring more than just a single element of enemy blood. Since you'll need an enemy's blood anyway, and this particular enemy's blood will not only do the initial job, but give you extra protection against him (to prevent the same unfortunate experience of book 1) and you are egotistically confident that your plan to capture said enemy's blood will work, why not stick with that plan? Also - going with your idea would leave Wormtail w/ no hands :D
– NKCampbell
Nov 28 '18 at 22:17
2
2
I think it's likely because of the amount of struggle he had just to get to the point where he could even perform the ritual. He spent about 13 years like that, so I think he didn't want to go all the way back to square one versus spending a little extra time near the end of the process so he could acquire Harry's blood.
– Kai
Nov 28 '18 at 23:04
I think it's likely because of the amount of struggle he had just to get to the point where he could even perform the ritual. He spent about 13 years like that, so I think he didn't want to go all the way back to square one versus spending a little extra time near the end of the process so he could acquire Harry's blood.
– Kai
Nov 28 '18 at 23:04
1
1
@Kai It wasn't just a little extra time. It was almost an entire year.
– Alex
Nov 28 '18 at 23:29
@Kai It wasn't just a little extra time. It was almost an entire year.
– Alex
Nov 28 '18 at 23:29
@NKCampbell Why not stick with that plan? Because it requires spending a year as a grotesque baby-like creature entirely dependent on Wormtail, when instead he could spend the year killing people and building up his power again.
– Alex
Nov 28 '18 at 23:31
@NKCampbell Why not stick with that plan? Because it requires spending a year as a grotesque baby-like creature entirely dependent on Wormtail, when instead he could spend the year killing people and building up his power again.
– Alex
Nov 28 '18 at 23:31
|
show 1 more comment
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
The Dark Lord said a few more months wait made no difference.
When Wormtail asked the Dark Lord why he wouldn’t use another of his foes’ blood, the Dark Lord said he’d waited thirteen years, so a few more months wouldn’t make any difference.
“I have my reasons for using the boy, as I have already explained to you, and I will use no other. I have waited thirteen years. A few more months will make no difference.”
- Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, Chapter 1 (The Riddle House)
This would also apply to why he wouldn’t feel the need to create a temporary body to use for a few months while waiting to get Harry’s blood - he was willing to wait the extra time.
1
So, either the existing reasons were enough to convince him not to restore himself twice - or, he had some reason not to do it that we don't know. In the latter case, the unknown reason is the actual answer to Alex's question.
– RDFozz
Nov 29 '18 at 18:20
add a comment |
Voldemort feared and detested death. He wouldn't have contemplated a plan involving his own.
The main barrier to Voldemort accepting - or even contemplating - the plan laid out in the question is his own all-consuming hatred for death. Even if he knew that he had his Horcruxes to rely upon (and he knew that they definitely worked) and even if he knew that the process of being non-corporeal would be only temporary I still can't imagine him willingly embracing death in order to achieve a 'better' body. Using another, lesser wizard to create a temporary body would necessarily involve going through the process of death, spirit form and rebirth all over again. Given the choice of remaining weak and bodyless for a few more months or deliberately accepting his own death (however temporary), Voldemort will choose the former every time.
After all, tolerating death is incompatible with his overall goal of conquering it.
"What I was, even I do not know...I, who have gone further than anybody
along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal - to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked..."
(Goblet of Fire, Chapter 33, The Death Eaters).
Furthermore, he regarded death as a shameful weakness.
"I believe that it was then that he dropped the name forever, assumed the identity of Lord Voldemort, and began his investigations into his previously despised mother’s family - the woman whom, you will remember, he had thought could not be a witch if she had succumbed to the shameful human weakness of death."
(Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 17, A Sluggish Memory).
He would certainly have seen the process of death as being beneath him. Having been unfortunate enough to have to suffer the process once (from Voldemort's point of view, down to a regrettable lack of foresight) he would be even more resolved never to experience it again.
Although, the most telling reason of all was probably that, deep down, Voldemort really feared death.
“There is nothing to be feared from a body, Harry, any more than there is anything to be feared from the darkness.
Lord Voldemort, who of course secretly fears both, disagrees. But
once again he reveals his own lack of wisdom. It is the unknown we
fear when we look upon death and darkness, nothing more.”
(Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 26, The Cave).
Again, choosing to go through the 'rebirthing' process again would mean only a temporary flirting with mortality. Nevertheless, the first time the experience was thrust upon him. This time he would have to make the conscious decision to embrace death. Since he has an intrinsic fear of death I believe that this is something that Voldemort would be unable to go through with.
Furthermore, this plan would involve Voldemort relying upon Wormtail, even more than he did in his weakened state. For Wormtail, as his only follower, would presumably have to 'kill' his master in order for Voldemort to reenter his non-corporeal state. This is placing a level of power and control over Voldemort that he would be unwilling to tolerate. Have one of his most pitiful servants capable of having the bragging rights of having killed Lord Voldemort? Again, Voldemort would prefer to remain without a body that accept this position.
These may not be magical reasons not to go through with the process. They are psychological ones. But I'd argue that, for Voldemort, psychological reasons are just as powerful deterrents as anything else for him to pursue such a plan. Accepting death was not a magical problem so much as it was a personal and ideological one. This is the most compelling reason why taking on a temporary body would never have occurred to Voldemort.
4
Of course you answered this :-)
– Rand al'Thor♦
Nov 29 '18 at 23:10
Interesting take. A few points to consider: 1) Is the temporary incorporeal state really "death" such that it falls into the category of what Voldemort fears/detests/thinks is shameful? 2) Would he really need to rely on Wormtail? I was thinking more that once he got his body (the first rebirth) he would regroup all the Death Eaters, so he would have all of them to choose from to help him. I was also thinking that maybe he would do it himself (is there any reason to assume that you can't Avada Kedavra yourself?).
– Alex
Nov 29 '18 at 23:14
Either way he would need to rely on someone for help. But the way he did do it he had to rely on someone (who he knew didn't really want to be helping him) to completely take care of him for a year and then perform the rebirthing ritual; with my suggestion he would only have to rely on someone to do the rebirthing ritual a second time.
– Alex
Nov 29 '18 at 23:16
@Alex 1) As I say, even if you knew the process was temporary, would it really seem that different if you had to go through with it? I doubt it would be anyone - and certainly not for Voldemort, who - as the quotations show - has a significantly more debilitating contempt and fear of death than other witches and wizards. 2) Whether it was Wormtail or another DE that did the deed it would still mean relying on another person to kill him. I don't think it actually matters who did it. Voldemort wouldn't tolerate it because it would mean compromising his independence. He doesn't trust anyone.
– The Dark Lord
Nov 29 '18 at 23:27
@Alex As for the question about suicide, this question suggests you can kill yourself with AK. Although the answer doesn't draw on sources I consider to be proper canon so I'd say it's an open question myself. I'd err on the side of thinking it's not possible.
– The Dark Lord
Nov 29 '18 at 23:29
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2 Answers
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The Dark Lord said a few more months wait made no difference.
When Wormtail asked the Dark Lord why he wouldn’t use another of his foes’ blood, the Dark Lord said he’d waited thirteen years, so a few more months wouldn’t make any difference.
“I have my reasons for using the boy, as I have already explained to you, and I will use no other. I have waited thirteen years. A few more months will make no difference.”
- Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, Chapter 1 (The Riddle House)
This would also apply to why he wouldn’t feel the need to create a temporary body to use for a few months while waiting to get Harry’s blood - he was willing to wait the extra time.
1
So, either the existing reasons were enough to convince him not to restore himself twice - or, he had some reason not to do it that we don't know. In the latter case, the unknown reason is the actual answer to Alex's question.
– RDFozz
Nov 29 '18 at 18:20
add a comment |
The Dark Lord said a few more months wait made no difference.
When Wormtail asked the Dark Lord why he wouldn’t use another of his foes’ blood, the Dark Lord said he’d waited thirteen years, so a few more months wouldn’t make any difference.
“I have my reasons for using the boy, as I have already explained to you, and I will use no other. I have waited thirteen years. A few more months will make no difference.”
- Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, Chapter 1 (The Riddle House)
This would also apply to why he wouldn’t feel the need to create a temporary body to use for a few months while waiting to get Harry’s blood - he was willing to wait the extra time.
1
So, either the existing reasons were enough to convince him not to restore himself twice - or, he had some reason not to do it that we don't know. In the latter case, the unknown reason is the actual answer to Alex's question.
– RDFozz
Nov 29 '18 at 18:20
add a comment |
The Dark Lord said a few more months wait made no difference.
When Wormtail asked the Dark Lord why he wouldn’t use another of his foes’ blood, the Dark Lord said he’d waited thirteen years, so a few more months wouldn’t make any difference.
“I have my reasons for using the boy, as I have already explained to you, and I will use no other. I have waited thirteen years. A few more months will make no difference.”
- Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, Chapter 1 (The Riddle House)
This would also apply to why he wouldn’t feel the need to create a temporary body to use for a few months while waiting to get Harry’s blood - he was willing to wait the extra time.
The Dark Lord said a few more months wait made no difference.
When Wormtail asked the Dark Lord why he wouldn’t use another of his foes’ blood, the Dark Lord said he’d waited thirteen years, so a few more months wouldn’t make any difference.
“I have my reasons for using the boy, as I have already explained to you, and I will use no other. I have waited thirteen years. A few more months will make no difference.”
- Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, Chapter 1 (The Riddle House)
This would also apply to why he wouldn’t feel the need to create a temporary body to use for a few months while waiting to get Harry’s blood - he was willing to wait the extra time.
answered Nov 29 '18 at 1:35
BellatrixBellatrix
76.3k15329381
76.3k15329381
1
So, either the existing reasons were enough to convince him not to restore himself twice - or, he had some reason not to do it that we don't know. In the latter case, the unknown reason is the actual answer to Alex's question.
– RDFozz
Nov 29 '18 at 18:20
add a comment |
1
So, either the existing reasons were enough to convince him not to restore himself twice - or, he had some reason not to do it that we don't know. In the latter case, the unknown reason is the actual answer to Alex's question.
– RDFozz
Nov 29 '18 at 18:20
1
1
So, either the existing reasons were enough to convince him not to restore himself twice - or, he had some reason not to do it that we don't know. In the latter case, the unknown reason is the actual answer to Alex's question.
– RDFozz
Nov 29 '18 at 18:20
So, either the existing reasons were enough to convince him not to restore himself twice - or, he had some reason not to do it that we don't know. In the latter case, the unknown reason is the actual answer to Alex's question.
– RDFozz
Nov 29 '18 at 18:20
add a comment |
Voldemort feared and detested death. He wouldn't have contemplated a plan involving his own.
The main barrier to Voldemort accepting - or even contemplating - the plan laid out in the question is his own all-consuming hatred for death. Even if he knew that he had his Horcruxes to rely upon (and he knew that they definitely worked) and even if he knew that the process of being non-corporeal would be only temporary I still can't imagine him willingly embracing death in order to achieve a 'better' body. Using another, lesser wizard to create a temporary body would necessarily involve going through the process of death, spirit form and rebirth all over again. Given the choice of remaining weak and bodyless for a few more months or deliberately accepting his own death (however temporary), Voldemort will choose the former every time.
After all, tolerating death is incompatible with his overall goal of conquering it.
"What I was, even I do not know...I, who have gone further than anybody
along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal - to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked..."
(Goblet of Fire, Chapter 33, The Death Eaters).
Furthermore, he regarded death as a shameful weakness.
"I believe that it was then that he dropped the name forever, assumed the identity of Lord Voldemort, and began his investigations into his previously despised mother’s family - the woman whom, you will remember, he had thought could not be a witch if she had succumbed to the shameful human weakness of death."
(Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 17, A Sluggish Memory).
He would certainly have seen the process of death as being beneath him. Having been unfortunate enough to have to suffer the process once (from Voldemort's point of view, down to a regrettable lack of foresight) he would be even more resolved never to experience it again.
Although, the most telling reason of all was probably that, deep down, Voldemort really feared death.
“There is nothing to be feared from a body, Harry, any more than there is anything to be feared from the darkness.
Lord Voldemort, who of course secretly fears both, disagrees. But
once again he reveals his own lack of wisdom. It is the unknown we
fear when we look upon death and darkness, nothing more.”
(Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 26, The Cave).
Again, choosing to go through the 'rebirthing' process again would mean only a temporary flirting with mortality. Nevertheless, the first time the experience was thrust upon him. This time he would have to make the conscious decision to embrace death. Since he has an intrinsic fear of death I believe that this is something that Voldemort would be unable to go through with.
Furthermore, this plan would involve Voldemort relying upon Wormtail, even more than he did in his weakened state. For Wormtail, as his only follower, would presumably have to 'kill' his master in order for Voldemort to reenter his non-corporeal state. This is placing a level of power and control over Voldemort that he would be unwilling to tolerate. Have one of his most pitiful servants capable of having the bragging rights of having killed Lord Voldemort? Again, Voldemort would prefer to remain without a body that accept this position.
These may not be magical reasons not to go through with the process. They are psychological ones. But I'd argue that, for Voldemort, psychological reasons are just as powerful deterrents as anything else for him to pursue such a plan. Accepting death was not a magical problem so much as it was a personal and ideological one. This is the most compelling reason why taking on a temporary body would never have occurred to Voldemort.
4
Of course you answered this :-)
– Rand al'Thor♦
Nov 29 '18 at 23:10
Interesting take. A few points to consider: 1) Is the temporary incorporeal state really "death" such that it falls into the category of what Voldemort fears/detests/thinks is shameful? 2) Would he really need to rely on Wormtail? I was thinking more that once he got his body (the first rebirth) he would regroup all the Death Eaters, so he would have all of them to choose from to help him. I was also thinking that maybe he would do it himself (is there any reason to assume that you can't Avada Kedavra yourself?).
– Alex
Nov 29 '18 at 23:14
Either way he would need to rely on someone for help. But the way he did do it he had to rely on someone (who he knew didn't really want to be helping him) to completely take care of him for a year and then perform the rebirthing ritual; with my suggestion he would only have to rely on someone to do the rebirthing ritual a second time.
– Alex
Nov 29 '18 at 23:16
@Alex 1) As I say, even if you knew the process was temporary, would it really seem that different if you had to go through with it? I doubt it would be anyone - and certainly not for Voldemort, who - as the quotations show - has a significantly more debilitating contempt and fear of death than other witches and wizards. 2) Whether it was Wormtail or another DE that did the deed it would still mean relying on another person to kill him. I don't think it actually matters who did it. Voldemort wouldn't tolerate it because it would mean compromising his independence. He doesn't trust anyone.
– The Dark Lord
Nov 29 '18 at 23:27
@Alex As for the question about suicide, this question suggests you can kill yourself with AK. Although the answer doesn't draw on sources I consider to be proper canon so I'd say it's an open question myself. I'd err on the side of thinking it's not possible.
– The Dark Lord
Nov 29 '18 at 23:29
add a comment |
Voldemort feared and detested death. He wouldn't have contemplated a plan involving his own.
The main barrier to Voldemort accepting - or even contemplating - the plan laid out in the question is his own all-consuming hatred for death. Even if he knew that he had his Horcruxes to rely upon (and he knew that they definitely worked) and even if he knew that the process of being non-corporeal would be only temporary I still can't imagine him willingly embracing death in order to achieve a 'better' body. Using another, lesser wizard to create a temporary body would necessarily involve going through the process of death, spirit form and rebirth all over again. Given the choice of remaining weak and bodyless for a few more months or deliberately accepting his own death (however temporary), Voldemort will choose the former every time.
After all, tolerating death is incompatible with his overall goal of conquering it.
"What I was, even I do not know...I, who have gone further than anybody
along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal - to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked..."
(Goblet of Fire, Chapter 33, The Death Eaters).
Furthermore, he regarded death as a shameful weakness.
"I believe that it was then that he dropped the name forever, assumed the identity of Lord Voldemort, and began his investigations into his previously despised mother’s family - the woman whom, you will remember, he had thought could not be a witch if she had succumbed to the shameful human weakness of death."
(Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 17, A Sluggish Memory).
He would certainly have seen the process of death as being beneath him. Having been unfortunate enough to have to suffer the process once (from Voldemort's point of view, down to a regrettable lack of foresight) he would be even more resolved never to experience it again.
Although, the most telling reason of all was probably that, deep down, Voldemort really feared death.
“There is nothing to be feared from a body, Harry, any more than there is anything to be feared from the darkness.
Lord Voldemort, who of course secretly fears both, disagrees. But
once again he reveals his own lack of wisdom. It is the unknown we
fear when we look upon death and darkness, nothing more.”
(Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 26, The Cave).
Again, choosing to go through the 'rebirthing' process again would mean only a temporary flirting with mortality. Nevertheless, the first time the experience was thrust upon him. This time he would have to make the conscious decision to embrace death. Since he has an intrinsic fear of death I believe that this is something that Voldemort would be unable to go through with.
Furthermore, this plan would involve Voldemort relying upon Wormtail, even more than he did in his weakened state. For Wormtail, as his only follower, would presumably have to 'kill' his master in order for Voldemort to reenter his non-corporeal state. This is placing a level of power and control over Voldemort that he would be unwilling to tolerate. Have one of his most pitiful servants capable of having the bragging rights of having killed Lord Voldemort? Again, Voldemort would prefer to remain without a body that accept this position.
These may not be magical reasons not to go through with the process. They are psychological ones. But I'd argue that, for Voldemort, psychological reasons are just as powerful deterrents as anything else for him to pursue such a plan. Accepting death was not a magical problem so much as it was a personal and ideological one. This is the most compelling reason why taking on a temporary body would never have occurred to Voldemort.
4
Of course you answered this :-)
– Rand al'Thor♦
Nov 29 '18 at 23:10
Interesting take. A few points to consider: 1) Is the temporary incorporeal state really "death" such that it falls into the category of what Voldemort fears/detests/thinks is shameful? 2) Would he really need to rely on Wormtail? I was thinking more that once he got his body (the first rebirth) he would regroup all the Death Eaters, so he would have all of them to choose from to help him. I was also thinking that maybe he would do it himself (is there any reason to assume that you can't Avada Kedavra yourself?).
– Alex
Nov 29 '18 at 23:14
Either way he would need to rely on someone for help. But the way he did do it he had to rely on someone (who he knew didn't really want to be helping him) to completely take care of him for a year and then perform the rebirthing ritual; with my suggestion he would only have to rely on someone to do the rebirthing ritual a second time.
– Alex
Nov 29 '18 at 23:16
@Alex 1) As I say, even if you knew the process was temporary, would it really seem that different if you had to go through with it? I doubt it would be anyone - and certainly not for Voldemort, who - as the quotations show - has a significantly more debilitating contempt and fear of death than other witches and wizards. 2) Whether it was Wormtail or another DE that did the deed it would still mean relying on another person to kill him. I don't think it actually matters who did it. Voldemort wouldn't tolerate it because it would mean compromising his independence. He doesn't trust anyone.
– The Dark Lord
Nov 29 '18 at 23:27
@Alex As for the question about suicide, this question suggests you can kill yourself with AK. Although the answer doesn't draw on sources I consider to be proper canon so I'd say it's an open question myself. I'd err on the side of thinking it's not possible.
– The Dark Lord
Nov 29 '18 at 23:29
add a comment |
Voldemort feared and detested death. He wouldn't have contemplated a plan involving his own.
The main barrier to Voldemort accepting - or even contemplating - the plan laid out in the question is his own all-consuming hatred for death. Even if he knew that he had his Horcruxes to rely upon (and he knew that they definitely worked) and even if he knew that the process of being non-corporeal would be only temporary I still can't imagine him willingly embracing death in order to achieve a 'better' body. Using another, lesser wizard to create a temporary body would necessarily involve going through the process of death, spirit form and rebirth all over again. Given the choice of remaining weak and bodyless for a few more months or deliberately accepting his own death (however temporary), Voldemort will choose the former every time.
After all, tolerating death is incompatible with his overall goal of conquering it.
"What I was, even I do not know...I, who have gone further than anybody
along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal - to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked..."
(Goblet of Fire, Chapter 33, The Death Eaters).
Furthermore, he regarded death as a shameful weakness.
"I believe that it was then that he dropped the name forever, assumed the identity of Lord Voldemort, and began his investigations into his previously despised mother’s family - the woman whom, you will remember, he had thought could not be a witch if she had succumbed to the shameful human weakness of death."
(Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 17, A Sluggish Memory).
He would certainly have seen the process of death as being beneath him. Having been unfortunate enough to have to suffer the process once (from Voldemort's point of view, down to a regrettable lack of foresight) he would be even more resolved never to experience it again.
Although, the most telling reason of all was probably that, deep down, Voldemort really feared death.
“There is nothing to be feared from a body, Harry, any more than there is anything to be feared from the darkness.
Lord Voldemort, who of course secretly fears both, disagrees. But
once again he reveals his own lack of wisdom. It is the unknown we
fear when we look upon death and darkness, nothing more.”
(Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 26, The Cave).
Again, choosing to go through the 'rebirthing' process again would mean only a temporary flirting with mortality. Nevertheless, the first time the experience was thrust upon him. This time he would have to make the conscious decision to embrace death. Since he has an intrinsic fear of death I believe that this is something that Voldemort would be unable to go through with.
Furthermore, this plan would involve Voldemort relying upon Wormtail, even more than he did in his weakened state. For Wormtail, as his only follower, would presumably have to 'kill' his master in order for Voldemort to reenter his non-corporeal state. This is placing a level of power and control over Voldemort that he would be unwilling to tolerate. Have one of his most pitiful servants capable of having the bragging rights of having killed Lord Voldemort? Again, Voldemort would prefer to remain without a body that accept this position.
These may not be magical reasons not to go through with the process. They are psychological ones. But I'd argue that, for Voldemort, psychological reasons are just as powerful deterrents as anything else for him to pursue such a plan. Accepting death was not a magical problem so much as it was a personal and ideological one. This is the most compelling reason why taking on a temporary body would never have occurred to Voldemort.
Voldemort feared and detested death. He wouldn't have contemplated a plan involving his own.
The main barrier to Voldemort accepting - or even contemplating - the plan laid out in the question is his own all-consuming hatred for death. Even if he knew that he had his Horcruxes to rely upon (and he knew that they definitely worked) and even if he knew that the process of being non-corporeal would be only temporary I still can't imagine him willingly embracing death in order to achieve a 'better' body. Using another, lesser wizard to create a temporary body would necessarily involve going through the process of death, spirit form and rebirth all over again. Given the choice of remaining weak and bodyless for a few more months or deliberately accepting his own death (however temporary), Voldemort will choose the former every time.
After all, tolerating death is incompatible with his overall goal of conquering it.
"What I was, even I do not know...I, who have gone further than anybody
along the path that leads to immortality. You know my goal - to conquer death. And now, I was tested, and it appeared that one or more of my experiments had worked..."
(Goblet of Fire, Chapter 33, The Death Eaters).
Furthermore, he regarded death as a shameful weakness.
"I believe that it was then that he dropped the name forever, assumed the identity of Lord Voldemort, and began his investigations into his previously despised mother’s family - the woman whom, you will remember, he had thought could not be a witch if she had succumbed to the shameful human weakness of death."
(Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 17, A Sluggish Memory).
He would certainly have seen the process of death as being beneath him. Having been unfortunate enough to have to suffer the process once (from Voldemort's point of view, down to a regrettable lack of foresight) he would be even more resolved never to experience it again.
Although, the most telling reason of all was probably that, deep down, Voldemort really feared death.
“There is nothing to be feared from a body, Harry, any more than there is anything to be feared from the darkness.
Lord Voldemort, who of course secretly fears both, disagrees. But
once again he reveals his own lack of wisdom. It is the unknown we
fear when we look upon death and darkness, nothing more.”
(Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 26, The Cave).
Again, choosing to go through the 'rebirthing' process again would mean only a temporary flirting with mortality. Nevertheless, the first time the experience was thrust upon him. This time he would have to make the conscious decision to embrace death. Since he has an intrinsic fear of death I believe that this is something that Voldemort would be unable to go through with.
Furthermore, this plan would involve Voldemort relying upon Wormtail, even more than he did in his weakened state. For Wormtail, as his only follower, would presumably have to 'kill' his master in order for Voldemort to reenter his non-corporeal state. This is placing a level of power and control over Voldemort that he would be unwilling to tolerate. Have one of his most pitiful servants capable of having the bragging rights of having killed Lord Voldemort? Again, Voldemort would prefer to remain without a body that accept this position.
These may not be magical reasons not to go through with the process. They are psychological ones. But I'd argue that, for Voldemort, psychological reasons are just as powerful deterrents as anything else for him to pursue such a plan. Accepting death was not a magical problem so much as it was a personal and ideological one. This is the most compelling reason why taking on a temporary body would never have occurred to Voldemort.
edited 13 mins ago
Alex
17.9k35391
17.9k35391
answered Nov 29 '18 at 23:06
The Dark LordThe Dark Lord
40.8k21198322
40.8k21198322
4
Of course you answered this :-)
– Rand al'Thor♦
Nov 29 '18 at 23:10
Interesting take. A few points to consider: 1) Is the temporary incorporeal state really "death" such that it falls into the category of what Voldemort fears/detests/thinks is shameful? 2) Would he really need to rely on Wormtail? I was thinking more that once he got his body (the first rebirth) he would regroup all the Death Eaters, so he would have all of them to choose from to help him. I was also thinking that maybe he would do it himself (is there any reason to assume that you can't Avada Kedavra yourself?).
– Alex
Nov 29 '18 at 23:14
Either way he would need to rely on someone for help. But the way he did do it he had to rely on someone (who he knew didn't really want to be helping him) to completely take care of him for a year and then perform the rebirthing ritual; with my suggestion he would only have to rely on someone to do the rebirthing ritual a second time.
– Alex
Nov 29 '18 at 23:16
@Alex 1) As I say, even if you knew the process was temporary, would it really seem that different if you had to go through with it? I doubt it would be anyone - and certainly not for Voldemort, who - as the quotations show - has a significantly more debilitating contempt and fear of death than other witches and wizards. 2) Whether it was Wormtail or another DE that did the deed it would still mean relying on another person to kill him. I don't think it actually matters who did it. Voldemort wouldn't tolerate it because it would mean compromising his independence. He doesn't trust anyone.
– The Dark Lord
Nov 29 '18 at 23:27
@Alex As for the question about suicide, this question suggests you can kill yourself with AK. Although the answer doesn't draw on sources I consider to be proper canon so I'd say it's an open question myself. I'd err on the side of thinking it's not possible.
– The Dark Lord
Nov 29 '18 at 23:29
add a comment |
4
Of course you answered this :-)
– Rand al'Thor♦
Nov 29 '18 at 23:10
Interesting take. A few points to consider: 1) Is the temporary incorporeal state really "death" such that it falls into the category of what Voldemort fears/detests/thinks is shameful? 2) Would he really need to rely on Wormtail? I was thinking more that once he got his body (the first rebirth) he would regroup all the Death Eaters, so he would have all of them to choose from to help him. I was also thinking that maybe he would do it himself (is there any reason to assume that you can't Avada Kedavra yourself?).
– Alex
Nov 29 '18 at 23:14
Either way he would need to rely on someone for help. But the way he did do it he had to rely on someone (who he knew didn't really want to be helping him) to completely take care of him for a year and then perform the rebirthing ritual; with my suggestion he would only have to rely on someone to do the rebirthing ritual a second time.
– Alex
Nov 29 '18 at 23:16
@Alex 1) As I say, even if you knew the process was temporary, would it really seem that different if you had to go through with it? I doubt it would be anyone - and certainly not for Voldemort, who - as the quotations show - has a significantly more debilitating contempt and fear of death than other witches and wizards. 2) Whether it was Wormtail or another DE that did the deed it would still mean relying on another person to kill him. I don't think it actually matters who did it. Voldemort wouldn't tolerate it because it would mean compromising his independence. He doesn't trust anyone.
– The Dark Lord
Nov 29 '18 at 23:27
@Alex As for the question about suicide, this question suggests you can kill yourself with AK. Although the answer doesn't draw on sources I consider to be proper canon so I'd say it's an open question myself. I'd err on the side of thinking it's not possible.
– The Dark Lord
Nov 29 '18 at 23:29
4
4
Of course you answered this :-)
– Rand al'Thor♦
Nov 29 '18 at 23:10
Of course you answered this :-)
– Rand al'Thor♦
Nov 29 '18 at 23:10
Interesting take. A few points to consider: 1) Is the temporary incorporeal state really "death" such that it falls into the category of what Voldemort fears/detests/thinks is shameful? 2) Would he really need to rely on Wormtail? I was thinking more that once he got his body (the first rebirth) he would regroup all the Death Eaters, so he would have all of them to choose from to help him. I was also thinking that maybe he would do it himself (is there any reason to assume that you can't Avada Kedavra yourself?).
– Alex
Nov 29 '18 at 23:14
Interesting take. A few points to consider: 1) Is the temporary incorporeal state really "death" such that it falls into the category of what Voldemort fears/detests/thinks is shameful? 2) Would he really need to rely on Wormtail? I was thinking more that once he got his body (the first rebirth) he would regroup all the Death Eaters, so he would have all of them to choose from to help him. I was also thinking that maybe he would do it himself (is there any reason to assume that you can't Avada Kedavra yourself?).
– Alex
Nov 29 '18 at 23:14
Either way he would need to rely on someone for help. But the way he did do it he had to rely on someone (who he knew didn't really want to be helping him) to completely take care of him for a year and then perform the rebirthing ritual; with my suggestion he would only have to rely on someone to do the rebirthing ritual a second time.
– Alex
Nov 29 '18 at 23:16
Either way he would need to rely on someone for help. But the way he did do it he had to rely on someone (who he knew didn't really want to be helping him) to completely take care of him for a year and then perform the rebirthing ritual; with my suggestion he would only have to rely on someone to do the rebirthing ritual a second time.
– Alex
Nov 29 '18 at 23:16
@Alex 1) As I say, even if you knew the process was temporary, would it really seem that different if you had to go through with it? I doubt it would be anyone - and certainly not for Voldemort, who - as the quotations show - has a significantly more debilitating contempt and fear of death than other witches and wizards. 2) Whether it was Wormtail or another DE that did the deed it would still mean relying on another person to kill him. I don't think it actually matters who did it. Voldemort wouldn't tolerate it because it would mean compromising his independence. He doesn't trust anyone.
– The Dark Lord
Nov 29 '18 at 23:27
@Alex 1) As I say, even if you knew the process was temporary, would it really seem that different if you had to go through with it? I doubt it would be anyone - and certainly not for Voldemort, who - as the quotations show - has a significantly more debilitating contempt and fear of death than other witches and wizards. 2) Whether it was Wormtail or another DE that did the deed it would still mean relying on another person to kill him. I don't think it actually matters who did it. Voldemort wouldn't tolerate it because it would mean compromising his independence. He doesn't trust anyone.
– The Dark Lord
Nov 29 '18 at 23:27
@Alex As for the question about suicide, this question suggests you can kill yourself with AK. Although the answer doesn't draw on sources I consider to be proper canon so I'd say it's an open question myself. I'd err on the side of thinking it's not possible.
– The Dark Lord
Nov 29 '18 at 23:29
@Alex As for the question about suicide, this question suggests you can kill yourself with AK. Although the answer doesn't draw on sources I consider to be proper canon so I'd say it's an open question myself. I'd err on the side of thinking it's not possible.
– The Dark Lord
Nov 29 '18 at 23:29
add a comment |
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10
If he hadn't waited until the end of the year it would have messed up the book series.
– Valorum
Nov 28 '18 at 21:39
1
the rebirthing process was an elaborate spell to begin with, requiring more than just a single element of enemy blood. Since you'll need an enemy's blood anyway, and this particular enemy's blood will not only do the initial job, but give you extra protection against him (to prevent the same unfortunate experience of book 1) and you are egotistically confident that your plan to capture said enemy's blood will work, why not stick with that plan? Also - going with your idea would leave Wormtail w/ no hands :D
– NKCampbell
Nov 28 '18 at 22:17
2
I think it's likely because of the amount of struggle he had just to get to the point where he could even perform the ritual. He spent about 13 years like that, so I think he didn't want to go all the way back to square one versus spending a little extra time near the end of the process so he could acquire Harry's blood.
– Kai
Nov 28 '18 at 23:04
1
@Kai It wasn't just a little extra time. It was almost an entire year.
– Alex
Nov 28 '18 at 23:29
@NKCampbell Why not stick with that plan? Because it requires spending a year as a grotesque baby-like creature entirely dependent on Wormtail, when instead he could spend the year killing people and building up his power again.
– Alex
Nov 28 '18 at 23:31