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Did Ar-Pharazôn and the King's Men know Melkor was Morgoth?


What is the true origin of the orcs?Are Tolkien's orcs immortal?Are Melkor's dead Maiar imprisoned with him?Does Galadriel have a natural tendency towards evil?Where is the place Gandalf tells the Witch King to go?Was Sauron always evil?What was the first sentient race that awoke on Arda?Have the inhabitants of Middle-earth ever used siege engines?How did Faramir know that Aragorn was the King in the Houses of Healing?Why did Manwe not understand the concept of Evil?













12















When Sauron corrupted the Númenoreans during Ar-Pharazôn's reign by making them worship Melkor, were the King and his followers aware that Melkor, the Lord of Darkness, was in fact the evil Morgoth who afflicted their ancestors in the First Age?



If so, then how would Sauron have reinterpreted the early history of Arda to sway these people?










share|improve this question


















  • 1





    Given how little detail there is in Akallabeth, I don't think it is mentioned anywhere.

    – Amarth
    Feb 28 at 20:01






  • 2





    I always got the impression that the Númenoreans were (or became, with the help of Sauron) so afraid of death that Sauron didn't really have to reinterpret much of history. Anything Morgoth did during the First Age was accurately construed as a struggle against the Valar, whom were blamed inaccurately for withholding longer life from Men. "Sure, he killed puppies, but he has the secret of immortality!"

    – chepner
    Feb 28 at 21:29


















12















When Sauron corrupted the Númenoreans during Ar-Pharazôn's reign by making them worship Melkor, were the King and his followers aware that Melkor, the Lord of Darkness, was in fact the evil Morgoth who afflicted their ancestors in the First Age?



If so, then how would Sauron have reinterpreted the early history of Arda to sway these people?










share|improve this question


















  • 1





    Given how little detail there is in Akallabeth, I don't think it is mentioned anywhere.

    – Amarth
    Feb 28 at 20:01






  • 2





    I always got the impression that the Númenoreans were (or became, with the help of Sauron) so afraid of death that Sauron didn't really have to reinterpret much of history. Anything Morgoth did during the First Age was accurately construed as a struggle against the Valar, whom were blamed inaccurately for withholding longer life from Men. "Sure, he killed puppies, but he has the secret of immortality!"

    – chepner
    Feb 28 at 21:29
















12












12








12








When Sauron corrupted the Númenoreans during Ar-Pharazôn's reign by making them worship Melkor, were the King and his followers aware that Melkor, the Lord of Darkness, was in fact the evil Morgoth who afflicted their ancestors in the First Age?



If so, then how would Sauron have reinterpreted the early history of Arda to sway these people?










share|improve this question














When Sauron corrupted the Númenoreans during Ar-Pharazôn's reign by making them worship Melkor, were the King and his followers aware that Melkor, the Lord of Darkness, was in fact the evil Morgoth who afflicted their ancestors in the First Age?



If so, then how would Sauron have reinterpreted the early history of Arda to sway these people?







tolkiens-legendarium






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




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asked Feb 28 at 2:01









RexRex

612




612








  • 1





    Given how little detail there is in Akallabeth, I don't think it is mentioned anywhere.

    – Amarth
    Feb 28 at 20:01






  • 2





    I always got the impression that the Númenoreans were (or became, with the help of Sauron) so afraid of death that Sauron didn't really have to reinterpret much of history. Anything Morgoth did during the First Age was accurately construed as a struggle against the Valar, whom were blamed inaccurately for withholding longer life from Men. "Sure, he killed puppies, but he has the secret of immortality!"

    – chepner
    Feb 28 at 21:29
















  • 1





    Given how little detail there is in Akallabeth, I don't think it is mentioned anywhere.

    – Amarth
    Feb 28 at 20:01






  • 2





    I always got the impression that the Númenoreans were (or became, with the help of Sauron) so afraid of death that Sauron didn't really have to reinterpret much of history. Anything Morgoth did during the First Age was accurately construed as a struggle against the Valar, whom were blamed inaccurately for withholding longer life from Men. "Sure, he killed puppies, but he has the secret of immortality!"

    – chepner
    Feb 28 at 21:29










1




1





Given how little detail there is in Akallabeth, I don't think it is mentioned anywhere.

– Amarth
Feb 28 at 20:01





Given how little detail there is in Akallabeth, I don't think it is mentioned anywhere.

– Amarth
Feb 28 at 20:01




2




2





I always got the impression that the Númenoreans were (or became, with the help of Sauron) so afraid of death that Sauron didn't really have to reinterpret much of history. Anything Morgoth did during the First Age was accurately construed as a struggle against the Valar, whom were blamed inaccurately for withholding longer life from Men. "Sure, he killed puppies, but he has the secret of immortality!"

– chepner
Feb 28 at 21:29







I always got the impression that the Númenoreans were (or became, with the help of Sauron) so afraid of death that Sauron didn't really have to reinterpret much of history. Anything Morgoth did during the First Age was accurately construed as a struggle against the Valar, whom were blamed inaccurately for withholding longer life from Men. "Sure, he killed puppies, but he has the secret of immortality!"

– chepner
Feb 28 at 21:29












1 Answer
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0














Most likely, but it wouldn't have mattered to him



Ar-Pharazôn would have known that:



1. Morgoth was the enemy of the Valar during the First Age.
2. Sauron was a lieutenant of Morgoth during that time.
3. Sauron was urging Ar-Pharazôn to worship a being named Melkor and referred to him as his lord.
4. Sauron described Melkor as being an enemy of the Valar.


Given that, I believe it's very likely that Ar-Pharazôn made the connection between Melkor and Morgoth.



Sauron didn't have to reinterpret history, but only to feed into the Númenóreans' distrust and resentment of the Valar that had been building up for generations.



Here are some quotes from AKALLABÊTH that demonstrate the Númenóreans' attitudes towards the Valar (these are in chronological order so you can see the development):




Now this yearning grew ever greater with the years; and the Númenóreans began to hunger for the undying city that they saw from afar, and the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them; and ever as their power and glory grew greater their unquiet increased.




...




Thus it was that a shadow fell upon them: in which maybe the will of Morgoth was at work that still moved in the world. And the Númenóreans began to murmur, at first in their hearts, and then in open words, against the doom of Men, and most of all against the Ban which forbade them to sail into the West.




...




But Atanamir [king of Númenór at the time] was ill pleased with the counsel of the Messengers [of the Valar] and gave little heed to it, and the greater part of his people followed him; for they wished still to escape death in their own day, not waiting upon hope.




...




In those days the Shadow grew deeper upon Númenor; and the lives of the Kings of the House of Elros waned because of their rebellion, but they hardened their hearts the more against the Valar.




...




Great was the anger of Ar-Pharazôn at these tidings, and as he pondered long in secret, his heart was filled with the desire of power unbounded and the sole dominion of his will. And he determined without counsel of the Valar, or the aid of any wisdom but his own, that the title of King of Men he would himself claim...




In summary, the Númenóreans -- particularly their kings and the King's Men party -- resented their mortality and their prohibition from from settling Valinor. When the Valar told them it was for their own good, they weren't satisfied and continued to grow in their distrust of them.



So Ar-Pharazôn wouldn’t have cared that Melkor / Morgoth fought against the Valar in the First Age. Even if he considered that Morgoth fought against his ancestors, he would have likely thought that his ancestors were deceived by the Valar and had been fighting on the wrong side.






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    1 Answer
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    0














    Most likely, but it wouldn't have mattered to him



    Ar-Pharazôn would have known that:



    1. Morgoth was the enemy of the Valar during the First Age.
    2. Sauron was a lieutenant of Morgoth during that time.
    3. Sauron was urging Ar-Pharazôn to worship a being named Melkor and referred to him as his lord.
    4. Sauron described Melkor as being an enemy of the Valar.


    Given that, I believe it's very likely that Ar-Pharazôn made the connection between Melkor and Morgoth.



    Sauron didn't have to reinterpret history, but only to feed into the Númenóreans' distrust and resentment of the Valar that had been building up for generations.



    Here are some quotes from AKALLABÊTH that demonstrate the Númenóreans' attitudes towards the Valar (these are in chronological order so you can see the development):




    Now this yearning grew ever greater with the years; and the Númenóreans began to hunger for the undying city that they saw from afar, and the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them; and ever as their power and glory grew greater their unquiet increased.




    ...




    Thus it was that a shadow fell upon them: in which maybe the will of Morgoth was at work that still moved in the world. And the Númenóreans began to murmur, at first in their hearts, and then in open words, against the doom of Men, and most of all against the Ban which forbade them to sail into the West.




    ...




    But Atanamir [king of Númenór at the time] was ill pleased with the counsel of the Messengers [of the Valar] and gave little heed to it, and the greater part of his people followed him; for they wished still to escape death in their own day, not waiting upon hope.




    ...




    In those days the Shadow grew deeper upon Númenor; and the lives of the Kings of the House of Elros waned because of their rebellion, but they hardened their hearts the more against the Valar.




    ...




    Great was the anger of Ar-Pharazôn at these tidings, and as he pondered long in secret, his heart was filled with the desire of power unbounded and the sole dominion of his will. And he determined without counsel of the Valar, or the aid of any wisdom but his own, that the title of King of Men he would himself claim...




    In summary, the Númenóreans -- particularly their kings and the King's Men party -- resented their mortality and their prohibition from from settling Valinor. When the Valar told them it was for their own good, they weren't satisfied and continued to grow in their distrust of them.



    So Ar-Pharazôn wouldn’t have cared that Melkor / Morgoth fought against the Valar in the First Age. Even if he considered that Morgoth fought against his ancestors, he would have likely thought that his ancestors were deceived by the Valar and had been fighting on the wrong side.






    share|improve this answer




























      0














      Most likely, but it wouldn't have mattered to him



      Ar-Pharazôn would have known that:



      1. Morgoth was the enemy of the Valar during the First Age.
      2. Sauron was a lieutenant of Morgoth during that time.
      3. Sauron was urging Ar-Pharazôn to worship a being named Melkor and referred to him as his lord.
      4. Sauron described Melkor as being an enemy of the Valar.


      Given that, I believe it's very likely that Ar-Pharazôn made the connection between Melkor and Morgoth.



      Sauron didn't have to reinterpret history, but only to feed into the Númenóreans' distrust and resentment of the Valar that had been building up for generations.



      Here are some quotes from AKALLABÊTH that demonstrate the Númenóreans' attitudes towards the Valar (these are in chronological order so you can see the development):




      Now this yearning grew ever greater with the years; and the Númenóreans began to hunger for the undying city that they saw from afar, and the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them; and ever as their power and glory grew greater their unquiet increased.




      ...




      Thus it was that a shadow fell upon them: in which maybe the will of Morgoth was at work that still moved in the world. And the Númenóreans began to murmur, at first in their hearts, and then in open words, against the doom of Men, and most of all against the Ban which forbade them to sail into the West.




      ...




      But Atanamir [king of Númenór at the time] was ill pleased with the counsel of the Messengers [of the Valar] and gave little heed to it, and the greater part of his people followed him; for they wished still to escape death in their own day, not waiting upon hope.




      ...




      In those days the Shadow grew deeper upon Númenor; and the lives of the Kings of the House of Elros waned because of their rebellion, but they hardened their hearts the more against the Valar.




      ...




      Great was the anger of Ar-Pharazôn at these tidings, and as he pondered long in secret, his heart was filled with the desire of power unbounded and the sole dominion of his will. And he determined without counsel of the Valar, or the aid of any wisdom but his own, that the title of King of Men he would himself claim...




      In summary, the Númenóreans -- particularly their kings and the King's Men party -- resented their mortality and their prohibition from from settling Valinor. When the Valar told them it was for their own good, they weren't satisfied and continued to grow in their distrust of them.



      So Ar-Pharazôn wouldn’t have cared that Melkor / Morgoth fought against the Valar in the First Age. Even if he considered that Morgoth fought against his ancestors, he would have likely thought that his ancestors were deceived by the Valar and had been fighting on the wrong side.






      share|improve this answer


























        0












        0








        0







        Most likely, but it wouldn't have mattered to him



        Ar-Pharazôn would have known that:



        1. Morgoth was the enemy of the Valar during the First Age.
        2. Sauron was a lieutenant of Morgoth during that time.
        3. Sauron was urging Ar-Pharazôn to worship a being named Melkor and referred to him as his lord.
        4. Sauron described Melkor as being an enemy of the Valar.


        Given that, I believe it's very likely that Ar-Pharazôn made the connection between Melkor and Morgoth.



        Sauron didn't have to reinterpret history, but only to feed into the Númenóreans' distrust and resentment of the Valar that had been building up for generations.



        Here are some quotes from AKALLABÊTH that demonstrate the Númenóreans' attitudes towards the Valar (these are in chronological order so you can see the development):




        Now this yearning grew ever greater with the years; and the Númenóreans began to hunger for the undying city that they saw from afar, and the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them; and ever as their power and glory grew greater their unquiet increased.




        ...




        Thus it was that a shadow fell upon them: in which maybe the will of Morgoth was at work that still moved in the world. And the Númenóreans began to murmur, at first in their hearts, and then in open words, against the doom of Men, and most of all against the Ban which forbade them to sail into the West.




        ...




        But Atanamir [king of Númenór at the time] was ill pleased with the counsel of the Messengers [of the Valar] and gave little heed to it, and the greater part of his people followed him; for they wished still to escape death in their own day, not waiting upon hope.




        ...




        In those days the Shadow grew deeper upon Númenor; and the lives of the Kings of the House of Elros waned because of their rebellion, but they hardened their hearts the more against the Valar.




        ...




        Great was the anger of Ar-Pharazôn at these tidings, and as he pondered long in secret, his heart was filled with the desire of power unbounded and the sole dominion of his will. And he determined without counsel of the Valar, or the aid of any wisdom but his own, that the title of King of Men he would himself claim...




        In summary, the Númenóreans -- particularly their kings and the King's Men party -- resented their mortality and their prohibition from from settling Valinor. When the Valar told them it was for their own good, they weren't satisfied and continued to grow in their distrust of them.



        So Ar-Pharazôn wouldn’t have cared that Melkor / Morgoth fought against the Valar in the First Age. Even if he considered that Morgoth fought against his ancestors, he would have likely thought that his ancestors were deceived by the Valar and had been fighting on the wrong side.






        share|improve this answer













        Most likely, but it wouldn't have mattered to him



        Ar-Pharazôn would have known that:



        1. Morgoth was the enemy of the Valar during the First Age.
        2. Sauron was a lieutenant of Morgoth during that time.
        3. Sauron was urging Ar-Pharazôn to worship a being named Melkor and referred to him as his lord.
        4. Sauron described Melkor as being an enemy of the Valar.


        Given that, I believe it's very likely that Ar-Pharazôn made the connection between Melkor and Morgoth.



        Sauron didn't have to reinterpret history, but only to feed into the Númenóreans' distrust and resentment of the Valar that had been building up for generations.



        Here are some quotes from AKALLABÊTH that demonstrate the Númenóreans' attitudes towards the Valar (these are in chronological order so you can see the development):




        Now this yearning grew ever greater with the years; and the Númenóreans began to hunger for the undying city that they saw from afar, and the desire of everlasting life, to escape from death and the ending of delight, grew strong upon them; and ever as their power and glory grew greater their unquiet increased.




        ...




        Thus it was that a shadow fell upon them: in which maybe the will of Morgoth was at work that still moved in the world. And the Númenóreans began to murmur, at first in their hearts, and then in open words, against the doom of Men, and most of all against the Ban which forbade them to sail into the West.




        ...




        But Atanamir [king of Númenór at the time] was ill pleased with the counsel of the Messengers [of the Valar] and gave little heed to it, and the greater part of his people followed him; for they wished still to escape death in their own day, not waiting upon hope.




        ...




        In those days the Shadow grew deeper upon Númenor; and the lives of the Kings of the House of Elros waned because of their rebellion, but they hardened their hearts the more against the Valar.




        ...




        Great was the anger of Ar-Pharazôn at these tidings, and as he pondered long in secret, his heart was filled with the desire of power unbounded and the sole dominion of his will. And he determined without counsel of the Valar, or the aid of any wisdom but his own, that the title of King of Men he would himself claim...




        In summary, the Númenóreans -- particularly their kings and the King's Men party -- resented their mortality and their prohibition from from settling Valinor. When the Valar told them it was for their own good, they weren't satisfied and continued to grow in their distrust of them.



        So Ar-Pharazôn wouldn’t have cared that Melkor / Morgoth fought against the Valar in the First Age. Even if he considered that Morgoth fought against his ancestors, he would have likely thought that his ancestors were deceived by the Valar and had been fighting on the wrong side.







        share|improve this answer












        share|improve this answer



        share|improve this answer










        answered 10 mins ago









        Ben OsborneBen Osborne

        2,090616




        2,090616






























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