Would it be possible to rearrange a dragon's flight muscle to somewhat circumvent the square-cube law? ...

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Would it be possible to rearrange a dragon's flight muscle to somewhat circumvent the square-cube law?



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The network's official Twitter account is up and running again. What content…Dragon forelimb placementWhat would happen if magic was constrained by the second law of thermodynamicsWhat issues as a result of square-cube law would a human scaled to the size of an ant face?Would it be possible to grow bamboo on the Earth's moon?Dragon's Blood - If it was a realistic animal what would be the color of its blood?What is the hardest wood possible, and where would this be a practical material?What would be the most addictive substance it is possible to make?What would be the possible benefits of pointed ears?Would it be possible to farm the energy from pulsars?Would a planet the size of Mercury with the gravity of Earth be scientifically possible?Giving dragons more flight muscle












5












$begingroup$


The square-cube law holds true only for objects that are similar. In evolution, you can't make big leaps forward, but since most fantasy worlds are created by gods or people who think they're gods, I'm free to abuse Intelligent design.



Dragons have six limbs, the 2 wings are situated near the front legs, but just far enough not to interfere. Their anatomy as of now is pretty much the same as avian wings and flight muscles.



That being said, assuming dragon bones are much stronger, thanks to some nanoscale engineering and a hint of graphene, how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?



Note: Before we veer off into the deepest insanity, I was thinking more of the "If strength is the function of muscle cross-section, can't we just shorten the fibers and increase the cross-sectional area, like a boss?" path.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
    $endgroup$
    – Liam Morris
    3 hours ago
















5












$begingroup$


The square-cube law holds true only for objects that are similar. In evolution, you can't make big leaps forward, but since most fantasy worlds are created by gods or people who think they're gods, I'm free to abuse Intelligent design.



Dragons have six limbs, the 2 wings are situated near the front legs, but just far enough not to interfere. Their anatomy as of now is pretty much the same as avian wings and flight muscles.



That being said, assuming dragon bones are much stronger, thanks to some nanoscale engineering and a hint of graphene, how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?



Note: Before we veer off into the deepest insanity, I was thinking more of the "If strength is the function of muscle cross-section, can't we just shorten the fibers and increase the cross-sectional area, like a boss?" path.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
    $endgroup$
    – Liam Morris
    3 hours ago














5












5








5





$begingroup$


The square-cube law holds true only for objects that are similar. In evolution, you can't make big leaps forward, but since most fantasy worlds are created by gods or people who think they're gods, I'm free to abuse Intelligent design.



Dragons have six limbs, the 2 wings are situated near the front legs, but just far enough not to interfere. Their anatomy as of now is pretty much the same as avian wings and flight muscles.



That being said, assuming dragon bones are much stronger, thanks to some nanoscale engineering and a hint of graphene, how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?



Note: Before we veer off into the deepest insanity, I was thinking more of the "If strength is the function of muscle cross-section, can't we just shorten the fibers and increase the cross-sectional area, like a boss?" path.










share|improve this question











$endgroup$




The square-cube law holds true only for objects that are similar. In evolution, you can't make big leaps forward, but since most fantasy worlds are created by gods or people who think they're gods, I'm free to abuse Intelligent design.



Dragons have six limbs, the 2 wings are situated near the front legs, but just far enough not to interfere. Their anatomy as of now is pretty much the same as avian wings and flight muscles.



That being said, assuming dragon bones are much stronger, thanks to some nanoscale engineering and a hint of graphene, how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?



Note: Before we veer off into the deepest insanity, I was thinking more of the "If strength is the function of muscle cross-section, can't we just shorten the fibers and increase the cross-sectional area, like a boss?" path.







science-based dragons bio-mechanics






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 3 hours ago







Mephistopheles

















asked 6 hours ago









MephistophelesMephistopheles

2,2292935




2,2292935












  • $begingroup$
    Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
    $endgroup$
    – Liam Morris
    3 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
    $endgroup$
    – Liam Morris
    3 hours ago
















$begingroup$
Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
Related to this question: worldbuilding.stackexchange.com/questions/143396/…
$endgroup$
– Liam Morris
3 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















4












$begingroup$

When I was a teen it was common for us to have a 50 cc scooter which, by law, could not exceed the speed of 50 km/h. When some of us wanted to tune up the scooter and get more out of the engine, one of the trick was to change the carburetor or the exhaust (or both). (don't try this at home, going at 110 km/h on normal roads with something designed to go at 50 is not only illegal, but also mighty stupid and a fast way to have an early funeral)



This trick would have allowed the engine to output more power with the same volume of the cylinder and the same structure.



How does this apply to your dragons? Well, you don't need to redesign the muscles/engine, just increase the metabolism of the beast, allowing it to burn more nutrients and output more energy with the same structure.



Incidentally, this is the same trick used by birds, which allow them to be able to fly.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
    $endgroup$
    – Spencer
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    29 mins ago



















1












$begingroup$

Your dragons are currently big pigeons: giant pectoralis for downstroke, presumably proportionately small supercoracoideus for upstroke. Background reading



But you could take advantage of graphene and the rule of cool and model your dragons on a unique bird: the hummingbird.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight




Most birds that hover have high aspect ratio wings that are suited to
low speed flying. Hummingbirds are a unique exception – the most
accomplished hoverers of all birds. Hummingbird flight is different
from other bird flight in that the wing is extended throughout the
whole stroke, which is a symmetrical figure of eight, with the wing
producing lift on both the up- and down-stroke. Hummingbirds beat
their wings at some 43 times per second, while others may be as high
as 80 times per second.




Hummingbirds fly like insects. Their wings move with a sort of sculling motion, and the pectoralis and supercoracoideus are closer to symmetrical in their contributions. They generate vortices as part of their lift mechanism, which would be so cool for a dragon because it would generate dust devils close to the ground.



One could argue dragons are too big and heavy to fly like hummingbirds. I refer these naysayers above to "graphene and rule of cool" and suggest they devote their skeptical energies to the problems inherent in breathing fire.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    4 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
    $endgroup$
    – Willk
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    U wot? speak english!
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    1 hour ago



















0












$begingroup$


how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?




The pectoralis major connects to the arm bone, so I am going to offer a solution that is biologically plausible:



Due to some mutation, some dragons are born with thw front legs and the wings partially fused. This adds a lot of muscle power to each wing stroke.



Over millenia (or maybe longer spans), the dragons evolve to have only four limbs. The wings get ever more muscular, achieving your desired result.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    50 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    36 mins ago












Your Answer








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3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









4












$begingroup$

When I was a teen it was common for us to have a 50 cc scooter which, by law, could not exceed the speed of 50 km/h. When some of us wanted to tune up the scooter and get more out of the engine, one of the trick was to change the carburetor or the exhaust (or both). (don't try this at home, going at 110 km/h on normal roads with something designed to go at 50 is not only illegal, but also mighty stupid and a fast way to have an early funeral)



This trick would have allowed the engine to output more power with the same volume of the cylinder and the same structure.



How does this apply to your dragons? Well, you don't need to redesign the muscles/engine, just increase the metabolism of the beast, allowing it to burn more nutrients and output more energy with the same structure.



Incidentally, this is the same trick used by birds, which allow them to be able to fly.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
    $endgroup$
    – Spencer
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    29 mins ago
















4












$begingroup$

When I was a teen it was common for us to have a 50 cc scooter which, by law, could not exceed the speed of 50 km/h. When some of us wanted to tune up the scooter and get more out of the engine, one of the trick was to change the carburetor or the exhaust (or both). (don't try this at home, going at 110 km/h on normal roads with something designed to go at 50 is not only illegal, but also mighty stupid and a fast way to have an early funeral)



This trick would have allowed the engine to output more power with the same volume of the cylinder and the same structure.



How does this apply to your dragons? Well, you don't need to redesign the muscles/engine, just increase the metabolism of the beast, allowing it to burn more nutrients and output more energy with the same structure.



Incidentally, this is the same trick used by birds, which allow them to be able to fly.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
    $endgroup$
    – Spencer
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    29 mins ago














4












4








4





$begingroup$

When I was a teen it was common for us to have a 50 cc scooter which, by law, could not exceed the speed of 50 km/h. When some of us wanted to tune up the scooter and get more out of the engine, one of the trick was to change the carburetor or the exhaust (or both). (don't try this at home, going at 110 km/h on normal roads with something designed to go at 50 is not only illegal, but also mighty stupid and a fast way to have an early funeral)



This trick would have allowed the engine to output more power with the same volume of the cylinder and the same structure.



How does this apply to your dragons? Well, you don't need to redesign the muscles/engine, just increase the metabolism of the beast, allowing it to burn more nutrients and output more energy with the same structure.



Incidentally, this is the same trick used by birds, which allow them to be able to fly.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$



When I was a teen it was common for us to have a 50 cc scooter which, by law, could not exceed the speed of 50 km/h. When some of us wanted to tune up the scooter and get more out of the engine, one of the trick was to change the carburetor or the exhaust (or both). (don't try this at home, going at 110 km/h on normal roads with something designed to go at 50 is not only illegal, but also mighty stupid and a fast way to have an early funeral)



This trick would have allowed the engine to output more power with the same volume of the cylinder and the same structure.



How does this apply to your dragons? Well, you don't need to redesign the muscles/engine, just increase the metabolism of the beast, allowing it to burn more nutrients and output more energy with the same structure.



Incidentally, this is the same trick used by birds, which allow them to be able to fly.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 6 hours ago









L.DutchL.Dutch

91.3k29211438




91.3k29211438












  • $begingroup$
    1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
    $endgroup$
    – Spencer
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    29 mins ago


















  • $begingroup$
    1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    6 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
    $endgroup$
    – JBH
    5 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
    $endgroup$
    – Spencer
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    29 mins ago
















$begingroup$
1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
6 hours ago




$begingroup$
1. Waste heat, though that's someone else's pet peeve. 2. What you're saying isn't wrong, but I'm looking for some way to restructure the muscle, ya' know "strength" is the function of the cross-section.
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
6 hours ago




1




1




$begingroup$
Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
$endgroup$
– JBH
5 hours ago




$begingroup$
Wow, this takes me back. I used to play with contact explosives and ballistic model rocketry using, um, well... black powder. Friends of mine solved their slow go-kart problems with a syringe full of alcohol and an open carburetor. It's a never-ending wonder that teenagers ever become adults.
$endgroup$
– JBH
5 hours ago












$begingroup$
@Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
$endgroup$
– Spencer
4 hours ago




$begingroup$
@Mephistopheles Not just waste heat but also metabolites. It may be necessary to have an auxiliary circulatory system, and also auxiliary kidneys, to carry them away.
$endgroup$
– Spencer
4 hours ago












$begingroup$
This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
$endgroup$
– Jan Hudec
29 mins ago




$begingroup$
This seems to be the reason pterosaurs could be so much larger than modern birds—the oxygen content peaked in Cretaceous period at about 1½ of current value, allowing faster metabolism.
$endgroup$
– Jan Hudec
29 mins ago











1












$begingroup$

Your dragons are currently big pigeons: giant pectoralis for downstroke, presumably proportionately small supercoracoideus for upstroke. Background reading



But you could take advantage of graphene and the rule of cool and model your dragons on a unique bird: the hummingbird.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight




Most birds that hover have high aspect ratio wings that are suited to
low speed flying. Hummingbirds are a unique exception – the most
accomplished hoverers of all birds. Hummingbird flight is different
from other bird flight in that the wing is extended throughout the
whole stroke, which is a symmetrical figure of eight, with the wing
producing lift on both the up- and down-stroke. Hummingbirds beat
their wings at some 43 times per second, while others may be as high
as 80 times per second.




Hummingbirds fly like insects. Their wings move with a sort of sculling motion, and the pectoralis and supercoracoideus are closer to symmetrical in their contributions. They generate vortices as part of their lift mechanism, which would be so cool for a dragon because it would generate dust devils close to the ground.



One could argue dragons are too big and heavy to fly like hummingbirds. I refer these naysayers above to "graphene and rule of cool" and suggest they devote their skeptical energies to the problems inherent in breathing fire.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    4 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
    $endgroup$
    – Willk
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    U wot? speak english!
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    1 hour ago
















1












$begingroup$

Your dragons are currently big pigeons: giant pectoralis for downstroke, presumably proportionately small supercoracoideus for upstroke. Background reading



But you could take advantage of graphene and the rule of cool and model your dragons on a unique bird: the hummingbird.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight




Most birds that hover have high aspect ratio wings that are suited to
low speed flying. Hummingbirds are a unique exception – the most
accomplished hoverers of all birds. Hummingbird flight is different
from other bird flight in that the wing is extended throughout the
whole stroke, which is a symmetrical figure of eight, with the wing
producing lift on both the up- and down-stroke. Hummingbirds beat
their wings at some 43 times per second, while others may be as high
as 80 times per second.




Hummingbirds fly like insects. Their wings move with a sort of sculling motion, and the pectoralis and supercoracoideus are closer to symmetrical in their contributions. They generate vortices as part of their lift mechanism, which would be so cool for a dragon because it would generate dust devils close to the ground.



One could argue dragons are too big and heavy to fly like hummingbirds. I refer these naysayers above to "graphene and rule of cool" and suggest they devote their skeptical energies to the problems inherent in breathing fire.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$









  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    4 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
    $endgroup$
    – Willk
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    U wot? speak english!
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    1 hour ago














1












1








1





$begingroup$

Your dragons are currently big pigeons: giant pectoralis for downstroke, presumably proportionately small supercoracoideus for upstroke. Background reading



But you could take advantage of graphene and the rule of cool and model your dragons on a unique bird: the hummingbird.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight




Most birds that hover have high aspect ratio wings that are suited to
low speed flying. Hummingbirds are a unique exception – the most
accomplished hoverers of all birds. Hummingbird flight is different
from other bird flight in that the wing is extended throughout the
whole stroke, which is a symmetrical figure of eight, with the wing
producing lift on both the up- and down-stroke. Hummingbirds beat
their wings at some 43 times per second, while others may be as high
as 80 times per second.




Hummingbirds fly like insects. Their wings move with a sort of sculling motion, and the pectoralis and supercoracoideus are closer to symmetrical in their contributions. They generate vortices as part of their lift mechanism, which would be so cool for a dragon because it would generate dust devils close to the ground.



One could argue dragons are too big and heavy to fly like hummingbirds. I refer these naysayers above to "graphene and rule of cool" and suggest they devote their skeptical energies to the problems inherent in breathing fire.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$



Your dragons are currently big pigeons: giant pectoralis for downstroke, presumably proportionately small supercoracoideus for upstroke. Background reading



But you could take advantage of graphene and the rule of cool and model your dragons on a unique bird: the hummingbird.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird_flight




Most birds that hover have high aspect ratio wings that are suited to
low speed flying. Hummingbirds are a unique exception – the most
accomplished hoverers of all birds. Hummingbird flight is different
from other bird flight in that the wing is extended throughout the
whole stroke, which is a symmetrical figure of eight, with the wing
producing lift on both the up- and down-stroke. Hummingbirds beat
their wings at some 43 times per second, while others may be as high
as 80 times per second.




Hummingbirds fly like insects. Their wings move with a sort of sculling motion, and the pectoralis and supercoracoideus are closer to symmetrical in their contributions. They generate vortices as part of their lift mechanism, which would be so cool for a dragon because it would generate dust devils close to the ground.



One could argue dragons are too big and heavy to fly like hummingbirds. I refer these naysayers above to "graphene and rule of cool" and suggest they devote their skeptical energies to the problems inherent in breathing fire.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 4 hours ago









WillkWillk

117k28221489




117k28221489








  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    4 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
    $endgroup$
    – Willk
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    U wot? speak english!
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    1 hour ago














  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    4 hours ago






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    @Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
    $endgroup$
    – Willk
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    U wot? speak english!
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    3 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    1 hour ago








1




1




$begingroup$
Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
4 hours ago




$begingroup$
Making them able to breathe fire is child's play. Though I'd prefer a long-range, precision strike breath-weapon with splash damage.
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
4 hours ago




2




2




$begingroup$
@Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
$endgroup$
– Willk
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
@Mephistopheles - dragon lugeys.
$endgroup$
– Willk
3 hours ago












$begingroup$
U wot? speak english!
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
3 hours ago




$begingroup$
U wot? speak english!
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
3 hours ago












$begingroup$
The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
$endgroup$
– Jan Hudec
1 hour ago




$begingroup$
The question is about circumventing square-cube law, and you suggest violating even worse scaling law instead?
$endgroup$
– Jan Hudec
1 hour ago











0












$begingroup$


how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?




The pectoralis major connects to the arm bone, so I am going to offer a solution that is biologically plausible:



Due to some mutation, some dragons are born with thw front legs and the wings partially fused. This adds a lot of muscle power to each wing stroke.



Over millenia (or maybe longer spans), the dragons evolve to have only four limbs. The wings get ever more muscular, achieving your desired result.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    50 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    36 mins ago
















0












$begingroup$


how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?




The pectoralis major connects to the arm bone, so I am going to offer a solution that is biologically plausible:



Due to some mutation, some dragons are born with thw front legs and the wings partially fused. This adds a lot of muscle power to each wing stroke.



Over millenia (or maybe longer spans), the dragons evolve to have only four limbs. The wings get ever more muscular, achieving your desired result.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$













  • $begingroup$
    I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    50 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    36 mins ago














0












0








0





$begingroup$


how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?




The pectoralis major connects to the arm bone, so I am going to offer a solution that is biologically plausible:



Due to some mutation, some dragons are born with thw front legs and the wings partially fused. This adds a lot of muscle power to each wing stroke.



Over millenia (or maybe longer spans), the dragons evolve to have only four limbs. The wings get ever more muscular, achieving your desired result.






share|improve this answer









$endgroup$




how could the pectoralis major, and the bone connecting to it, be rearranged to produce more power for the same mass?




The pectoralis major connects to the arm bone, so I am going to offer a solution that is biologically plausible:



Due to some mutation, some dragons are born with thw front legs and the wings partially fused. This adds a lot of muscle power to each wing stroke.



Over millenia (or maybe longer spans), the dragons evolve to have only four limbs. The wings get ever more muscular, achieving your desired result.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered 54 mins ago









RenanRenan

52.9k15120265




52.9k15120265












  • $begingroup$
    I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    50 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    36 mins ago


















  • $begingroup$
    I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
    $endgroup$
    – Mephistopheles
    50 mins ago










  • $begingroup$
    Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
    $endgroup$
    – Jan Hudec
    36 mins ago
















$begingroup$
I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
50 mins ago




$begingroup$
I can abuse Intelligent design as much as I want, I clearly stated that.
$endgroup$
– Mephistopheles
50 mins ago












$begingroup$
Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
$endgroup$
– Jan Hudec
36 mins ago




$begingroup$
Of course in birds the fore legs got changed to wings, and so was the case with pterosaurs.
$endgroup$
– Jan Hudec
36 mins ago


















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