Kepler's 3rd law: ratios don't fit data2019 Community Moderator Election Announcing the...

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Kepler's 3rd law: ratios don't fit data



2019 Community Moderator Election
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 23:30 UTC (7:30pm US/Eastern)
2019 Moderator Election Q&A - Question CollectionKepler's third law doesn't give earth's orbital period! Why?Only gravitation and Newton's $2^{mathrm{nd}}$ law needed to derive Kepler's laws?Newton's gravity formulas for ellipsesAngular Momentum and Kepler's Second LawCan the constant $k$ from Kepler's third law be independent of the mass of the planet?Kepler's law and my problemKepler's 3rd law applied to binary systems: How can the two orbits have different semi-major axes?Which Kepler laws might change with the Universal Gravitational Constant?Why does angular momentum being constant prove Kepler's first law?Kepler's third law is unintuitive












1












$begingroup$


I have been looking at satellite orbits around the earth, or any object around any planet in fact, and am trying to find the orbital radius, or semi major length of a given satellite.



Kepler's third law gives the equation $P^2 = a^3$ where $P$ is the period of orbit and $a$ the distance.



I have a table of satellites currently orbiting the earth, as well as their altitude in the sky on their geosynchronous trajectory. One in particular is 99.9 and has an altitude of 705.



By solving the equation for $a$, I get $a = (P^2)^{1/3}$.



When I plug in the numbers, they don't correspond.



So my questions are:




  1. Are there unit standards I need for both $P$ and $a$? Currently $P$ is in minutes, $a$ in kilometres.

  2. Am I missing something, like Newton's universal gravitational constant? I get a page deriving Kepler's third law using this constant.










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




triple7 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kepler.html#c6
    $endgroup$
    – Kyle Kanos
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The equality only holds in certain units since its dimensionally inhomogeneous. In particular, if you use Earth years and the Earth-Sun distance (i.e. 1a.u.) then it's true, so it must be true in those specific units.
    $endgroup$
    – jacob1729
    2 hours ago
















1












$begingroup$


I have been looking at satellite orbits around the earth, or any object around any planet in fact, and am trying to find the orbital radius, or semi major length of a given satellite.



Kepler's third law gives the equation $P^2 = a^3$ where $P$ is the period of orbit and $a$ the distance.



I have a table of satellites currently orbiting the earth, as well as their altitude in the sky on their geosynchronous trajectory. One in particular is 99.9 and has an altitude of 705.



By solving the equation for $a$, I get $a = (P^2)^{1/3}$.



When I plug in the numbers, they don't correspond.



So my questions are:




  1. Are there unit standards I need for both $P$ and $a$? Currently $P$ is in minutes, $a$ in kilometres.

  2. Am I missing something, like Newton's universal gravitational constant? I get a page deriving Kepler's third law using this constant.










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




triple7 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kepler.html#c6
    $endgroup$
    – Kyle Kanos
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The equality only holds in certain units since its dimensionally inhomogeneous. In particular, if you use Earth years and the Earth-Sun distance (i.e. 1a.u.) then it's true, so it must be true in those specific units.
    $endgroup$
    – jacob1729
    2 hours ago














1












1








1





$begingroup$


I have been looking at satellite orbits around the earth, or any object around any planet in fact, and am trying to find the orbital radius, or semi major length of a given satellite.



Kepler's third law gives the equation $P^2 = a^3$ where $P$ is the period of orbit and $a$ the distance.



I have a table of satellites currently orbiting the earth, as well as their altitude in the sky on their geosynchronous trajectory. One in particular is 99.9 and has an altitude of 705.



By solving the equation for $a$, I get $a = (P^2)^{1/3}$.



When I plug in the numbers, they don't correspond.



So my questions are:




  1. Are there unit standards I need for both $P$ and $a$? Currently $P$ is in minutes, $a$ in kilometres.

  2. Am I missing something, like Newton's universal gravitational constant? I get a page deriving Kepler's third law using this constant.










share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




triple7 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







$endgroup$




I have been looking at satellite orbits around the earth, or any object around any planet in fact, and am trying to find the orbital radius, or semi major length of a given satellite.



Kepler's third law gives the equation $P^2 = a^3$ where $P$ is the period of orbit and $a$ the distance.



I have a table of satellites currently orbiting the earth, as well as their altitude in the sky on their geosynchronous trajectory. One in particular is 99.9 and has an altitude of 705.



By solving the equation for $a$, I get $a = (P^2)^{1/3}$.



When I plug in the numbers, they don't correspond.



So my questions are:




  1. Are there unit standards I need for both $P$ and $a$? Currently $P$ is in minutes, $a$ in kilometres.

  2. Am I missing something, like Newton's universal gravitational constant? I get a page deriving Kepler's third law using this constant.







newtonian-mechanics newtonian-gravity orbital-motion celestial-mechanics satellites






share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




triple7 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|cite|improve this question









New contributor




triple7 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 4 hours ago









Qmechanic

108k122001253




108k122001253






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Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked 4 hours ago









triple7triple7

83




83




New contributor




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New contributor





triple7 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






triple7 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












  • $begingroup$
    hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kepler.html#c6
    $endgroup$
    – Kyle Kanos
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The equality only holds in certain units since its dimensionally inhomogeneous. In particular, if you use Earth years and the Earth-Sun distance (i.e. 1a.u.) then it's true, so it must be true in those specific units.
    $endgroup$
    – jacob1729
    2 hours ago


















  • $begingroup$
    hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kepler.html#c6
    $endgroup$
    – Kyle Kanos
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    The equality only holds in certain units since its dimensionally inhomogeneous. In particular, if you use Earth years and the Earth-Sun distance (i.e. 1a.u.) then it's true, so it must be true in those specific units.
    $endgroup$
    – jacob1729
    2 hours ago
















$begingroup$
hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kepler.html#c6
$endgroup$
– Kyle Kanos
4 hours ago




$begingroup$
hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kepler.html#c6
$endgroup$
– Kyle Kanos
4 hours ago












$begingroup$
The equality only holds in certain units since its dimensionally inhomogeneous. In particular, if you use Earth years and the Earth-Sun distance (i.e. 1a.u.) then it's true, so it must be true in those specific units.
$endgroup$
– jacob1729
2 hours ago




$begingroup$
The equality only holds in certain units since its dimensionally inhomogeneous. In particular, if you use Earth years and the Earth-Sun distance (i.e. 1a.u.) then it's true, so it must be true in those specific units.
$endgroup$
– jacob1729
2 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

that equality should be a proportional to sign. In particular, in SI, the squared period has units of seconds squared, and the semi-major radius of of the orbit cubed is in meters cubed, so they can't be equal.



Instead, I'd be checking whether $T^{2}/a^{3}$ is constant for different satellites orbiting the same object (Like the ISS and the moon, for example)






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$









  • 3




    $begingroup$
    Ok, as I'm blind and use a screenreader, I didn't realise it was a proportion sign. And most sites only show images for formulas, which are inaccessible too. Also, I am assuming you use latec or math jacks for the symbols here, which also make the screen reader hang In a cycle. Could you give me a simple ASCII form of the distance given a period?
    $endgroup$
    – triple7
    4 hours ago










  • $begingroup$
    @triple7: Keplers law says that the square of the period divided by the cube of the distance is equal to a constant for every central body. so, t squared divided by a cubed should be the same for the ISS and for the moon. After Kepler, Newton was able to come up with a theoretical formula to predict what this constant should be, which is 4 * pi squared / (G * M), where G is Newton's constant, and M is the mass of the central body.
    $endgroup$
    – Jerry Schirmer
    4 hours ago






  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Yep, finally found it. Thanks
    $endgroup$
    – triple7
    3 hours ago



















1












$begingroup$

The general form of Kepler's period law is $T^2 = frac{4pi^2}{G(M+m)}a^3$. Often, we make the simplifying assumption that $M>>m$, so that $M+m approx M$.



Kepler's period law only takes the form $T^2 = a^3$ (forgetting about the units) when you use certain quantities- in this case, $M$ being solar mass, $T$ being an Earth year, and $a$ being an astronomical unit.



Try plugging into the equation for the mass of earth (and don't bother with the satellite mass) and use units of meters and seconds. See if you get the right result!






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$





















    0












    $begingroup$

    Kepler's third law claims that $p^2 propto a^3$. The equality sign you use is incorrect.






    share|cite|improve this answer









    $endgroup$














      Your Answer








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      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes








      3 Answers
      3






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      2












      $begingroup$

      that equality should be a proportional to sign. In particular, in SI, the squared period has units of seconds squared, and the semi-major radius of of the orbit cubed is in meters cubed, so they can't be equal.



      Instead, I'd be checking whether $T^{2}/a^{3}$ is constant for different satellites orbiting the same object (Like the ISS and the moon, for example)






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$









      • 3




        $begingroup$
        Ok, as I'm blind and use a screenreader, I didn't realise it was a proportion sign. And most sites only show images for formulas, which are inaccessible too. Also, I am assuming you use latec or math jacks for the symbols here, which also make the screen reader hang In a cycle. Could you give me a simple ASCII form of the distance given a period?
        $endgroup$
        – triple7
        4 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        @triple7: Keplers law says that the square of the period divided by the cube of the distance is equal to a constant for every central body. so, t squared divided by a cubed should be the same for the ISS and for the moon. After Kepler, Newton was able to come up with a theoretical formula to predict what this constant should be, which is 4 * pi squared / (G * M), where G is Newton's constant, and M is the mass of the central body.
        $endgroup$
        – Jerry Schirmer
        4 hours ago






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Yep, finally found it. Thanks
        $endgroup$
        – triple7
        3 hours ago
















      2












      $begingroup$

      that equality should be a proportional to sign. In particular, in SI, the squared period has units of seconds squared, and the semi-major radius of of the orbit cubed is in meters cubed, so they can't be equal.



      Instead, I'd be checking whether $T^{2}/a^{3}$ is constant for different satellites orbiting the same object (Like the ISS and the moon, for example)






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$









      • 3




        $begingroup$
        Ok, as I'm blind and use a screenreader, I didn't realise it was a proportion sign. And most sites only show images for formulas, which are inaccessible too. Also, I am assuming you use latec or math jacks for the symbols here, which also make the screen reader hang In a cycle. Could you give me a simple ASCII form of the distance given a period?
        $endgroup$
        – triple7
        4 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        @triple7: Keplers law says that the square of the period divided by the cube of the distance is equal to a constant for every central body. so, t squared divided by a cubed should be the same for the ISS and for the moon. After Kepler, Newton was able to come up with a theoretical formula to predict what this constant should be, which is 4 * pi squared / (G * M), where G is Newton's constant, and M is the mass of the central body.
        $endgroup$
        – Jerry Schirmer
        4 hours ago






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Yep, finally found it. Thanks
        $endgroup$
        – triple7
        3 hours ago














      2












      2








      2





      $begingroup$

      that equality should be a proportional to sign. In particular, in SI, the squared period has units of seconds squared, and the semi-major radius of of the orbit cubed is in meters cubed, so they can't be equal.



      Instead, I'd be checking whether $T^{2}/a^{3}$ is constant for different satellites orbiting the same object (Like the ISS and the moon, for example)






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$



      that equality should be a proportional to sign. In particular, in SI, the squared period has units of seconds squared, and the semi-major radius of of the orbit cubed is in meters cubed, so they can't be equal.



      Instead, I'd be checking whether $T^{2}/a^{3}$ is constant for different satellites orbiting the same object (Like the ISS and the moon, for example)







      share|cite|improve this answer














      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer








      edited 4 hours ago

























      answered 4 hours ago









      Jerry SchirmerJerry Schirmer

      31.7k257107




      31.7k257107








      • 3




        $begingroup$
        Ok, as I'm blind and use a screenreader, I didn't realise it was a proportion sign. And most sites only show images for formulas, which are inaccessible too. Also, I am assuming you use latec or math jacks for the symbols here, which also make the screen reader hang In a cycle. Could you give me a simple ASCII form of the distance given a period?
        $endgroup$
        – triple7
        4 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        @triple7: Keplers law says that the square of the period divided by the cube of the distance is equal to a constant for every central body. so, t squared divided by a cubed should be the same for the ISS and for the moon. After Kepler, Newton was able to come up with a theoretical formula to predict what this constant should be, which is 4 * pi squared / (G * M), where G is Newton's constant, and M is the mass of the central body.
        $endgroup$
        – Jerry Schirmer
        4 hours ago






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Yep, finally found it. Thanks
        $endgroup$
        – triple7
        3 hours ago














      • 3




        $begingroup$
        Ok, as I'm blind and use a screenreader, I didn't realise it was a proportion sign. And most sites only show images for formulas, which are inaccessible too. Also, I am assuming you use latec or math jacks for the symbols here, which also make the screen reader hang In a cycle. Could you give me a simple ASCII form of the distance given a period?
        $endgroup$
        – triple7
        4 hours ago










      • $begingroup$
        @triple7: Keplers law says that the square of the period divided by the cube of the distance is equal to a constant for every central body. so, t squared divided by a cubed should be the same for the ISS and for the moon. After Kepler, Newton was able to come up with a theoretical formula to predict what this constant should be, which is 4 * pi squared / (G * M), where G is Newton's constant, and M is the mass of the central body.
        $endgroup$
        – Jerry Schirmer
        4 hours ago






      • 1




        $begingroup$
        Yep, finally found it. Thanks
        $endgroup$
        – triple7
        3 hours ago








      3




      3




      $begingroup$
      Ok, as I'm blind and use a screenreader, I didn't realise it was a proportion sign. And most sites only show images for formulas, which are inaccessible too. Also, I am assuming you use latec or math jacks for the symbols here, which also make the screen reader hang In a cycle. Could you give me a simple ASCII form of the distance given a period?
      $endgroup$
      – triple7
      4 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      Ok, as I'm blind and use a screenreader, I didn't realise it was a proportion sign. And most sites only show images for formulas, which are inaccessible too. Also, I am assuming you use latec or math jacks for the symbols here, which also make the screen reader hang In a cycle. Could you give me a simple ASCII form of the distance given a period?
      $endgroup$
      – triple7
      4 hours ago












      $begingroup$
      @triple7: Keplers law says that the square of the period divided by the cube of the distance is equal to a constant for every central body. so, t squared divided by a cubed should be the same for the ISS and for the moon. After Kepler, Newton was able to come up with a theoretical formula to predict what this constant should be, which is 4 * pi squared / (G * M), where G is Newton's constant, and M is the mass of the central body.
      $endgroup$
      – Jerry Schirmer
      4 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      @triple7: Keplers law says that the square of the period divided by the cube of the distance is equal to a constant for every central body. so, t squared divided by a cubed should be the same for the ISS and for the moon. After Kepler, Newton was able to come up with a theoretical formula to predict what this constant should be, which is 4 * pi squared / (G * M), where G is Newton's constant, and M is the mass of the central body.
      $endgroup$
      – Jerry Schirmer
      4 hours ago




      1




      1




      $begingroup$
      Yep, finally found it. Thanks
      $endgroup$
      – triple7
      3 hours ago




      $begingroup$
      Yep, finally found it. Thanks
      $endgroup$
      – triple7
      3 hours ago











      1












      $begingroup$

      The general form of Kepler's period law is $T^2 = frac{4pi^2}{G(M+m)}a^3$. Often, we make the simplifying assumption that $M>>m$, so that $M+m approx M$.



      Kepler's period law only takes the form $T^2 = a^3$ (forgetting about the units) when you use certain quantities- in this case, $M$ being solar mass, $T$ being an Earth year, and $a$ being an astronomical unit.



      Try plugging into the equation for the mass of earth (and don't bother with the satellite mass) and use units of meters and seconds. See if you get the right result!






      share|cite|improve this answer











      $endgroup$


















        1












        $begingroup$

        The general form of Kepler's period law is $T^2 = frac{4pi^2}{G(M+m)}a^3$. Often, we make the simplifying assumption that $M>>m$, so that $M+m approx M$.



        Kepler's period law only takes the form $T^2 = a^3$ (forgetting about the units) when you use certain quantities- in this case, $M$ being solar mass, $T$ being an Earth year, and $a$ being an astronomical unit.



        Try plugging into the equation for the mass of earth (and don't bother with the satellite mass) and use units of meters and seconds. See if you get the right result!






        share|cite|improve this answer











        $endgroup$
















          1












          1








          1





          $begingroup$

          The general form of Kepler's period law is $T^2 = frac{4pi^2}{G(M+m)}a^3$. Often, we make the simplifying assumption that $M>>m$, so that $M+m approx M$.



          Kepler's period law only takes the form $T^2 = a^3$ (forgetting about the units) when you use certain quantities- in this case, $M$ being solar mass, $T$ being an Earth year, and $a$ being an astronomical unit.



          Try plugging into the equation for the mass of earth (and don't bother with the satellite mass) and use units of meters and seconds. See if you get the right result!






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          The general form of Kepler's period law is $T^2 = frac{4pi^2}{G(M+m)}a^3$. Often, we make the simplifying assumption that $M>>m$, so that $M+m approx M$.



          Kepler's period law only takes the form $T^2 = a^3$ (forgetting about the units) when you use certain quantities- in this case, $M$ being solar mass, $T$ being an Earth year, and $a$ being an astronomical unit.



          Try plugging into the equation for the mass of earth (and don't bother with the satellite mass) and use units of meters and seconds. See if you get the right result!







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited 4 hours ago

























          answered 4 hours ago









          swickrotationswickrotation

          615




          615























              0












              $begingroup$

              Kepler's third law claims that $p^2 propto a^3$. The equality sign you use is incorrect.






              share|cite|improve this answer









              $endgroup$


















                0












                $begingroup$

                Kepler's third law claims that $p^2 propto a^3$. The equality sign you use is incorrect.






                share|cite|improve this answer









                $endgroup$
















                  0












                  0








                  0





                  $begingroup$

                  Kepler's third law claims that $p^2 propto a^3$. The equality sign you use is incorrect.






                  share|cite|improve this answer









                  $endgroup$



                  Kepler's third law claims that $p^2 propto a^3$. The equality sign you use is incorrect.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered 4 hours ago









                  my2ctsmy2cts

                  5,9342719




                  5,9342719






















                      triple7 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.










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                      triple7 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
















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                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown

































                      Required, but never shown














                      Required, but never shown












                      Required, but never shown







                      Required, but never shown







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